Charging problems

Author Topic: Charging problems  (Read 12823 times)

Offline NorthWestcuda

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Charging problems
« on: April 23, 2011 - 06:14:43 PM »
73 cuda with 440. The battery is only registering 12.2 volts.  So the charging system is not working.  I replaced the alternator last week and it worked just fine until I did some other things.  I replaced the negative battery cable and made sure the grounds are really good including the pigtail that goes to the body. I tightened the small screw that tightens one of the wires thats on the starter relay,  The car runs fine.  I also took a lot of the tape off the engine wire harness to see how things looked and re-taped it.  I’ve read through previous posts and tried a lot of what has been talked about and still not getting more than 12 volts.  This is what I’ve done so fare;

1). Took the new alternator back to NAPA and had them test it.  Everything is good.
2). Sanded and reground the voltage regulator.  Nothing changed
3). I have 12 volts at the big terminal on the alternator all the time and even ran a jumper straight to the positve battery terminal.  Nothing changed
4). Tried grounding the green field terminal on the alternator when running.  Nothing changed
5). Put a new voltage regulator into the system. Nothing changed
6). The voltage gauge is working but I tried to see what things looked like under my dash but the stereo is in the way. So I couldn’t see anything without tearing the stereo out.

What should I try next guys?

P.S. Should I have started a new topic or added to another one? I don’t know the protocol on this.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2011 - 07:40:48 PM by NorthWestcuda »
1973 Cuda, 440 engine
1972 Chevy 4x4 PU stepside
2003 Ford F-350 Diesel




Offline brads70

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Re: Charging problems
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2011 - 08:09:20 PM »
I'm no electrical wizard  :grinno: , but did you rev it up a little to test if was charging? I thought I read somewhere that they had to be at a certain RPM to charge?  :clueless:  What's the AMP gauge doing while your driving?
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
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Offline IMNCARN82

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Re: Charging problems
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2011 - 08:23:34 PM »
I feel your pain!! Same thing just happened to me. And it's a problem on my friends demon. We finally gave up and got a new 1 wire alt.  Weird that it worked at first.  Maybe check the connections and posts on the back of the alt. gauge.   Go back and pull your tape?  Howz the fusable link? Clean/check bulkhead connectors. Some great reading/links in  my thread on headlight problems. Turned out to be the charging system somewhere.  Guess you could try a starter relay. But I doubt that's it. Only because you touched it!  :poopoke:   Yeah,it's a girl car fo sho!
best of luck,Don't give up.   Is this a flat VR ?  and a square back alt.?  R/T
'73 340 5 speed,RMS,BAER,... "Supercuda" (O[   ]||||[   ]O)  
'69 Dodge Charger 383,Auto                  (OiiiiiiiiiiIiiiiiiiiiiO)
13' Challenger R/T BlacktoP  6spd. (OO________OO)
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Offline dodj

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Re: Charging problems
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2011 - 08:57:22 PM »
If you only have 12vdc at the alt stud then the alt isn't putting out enough juice. You had it tested and verified ok so it sounds like your field's varying (through the vr) connection to ground is possibly open. Sounds like you have gone over the grounds. You replaced the vr so it would be an unlikely candidate. You unwrapped the wiring which may have caused an open cct. in the field wiring.
Here is a bit of a write-up posted by 72RTChallenger that should be able to pinpoint the problem - give it a shot. It tells you how to full field the alt for max o/p.

Check voltage, both with engine OFF and running at fast idle, AT the alternator large nut connector. Voltage should be same as battery, and at fast idle, should be "up" from the battery voltage. With the car running on fast idle, measure with NEGATIVE meter probe on the POSITIVE battery post, and POSITIVE meter probe on the alternator nut connection. There should be very little reading, may 1/2 volt, if charging hard, maybe as much as 1 volt. ANY reading upwards shows problems with the large wire going from the alternator, through the firewall, to the ammeter, back through the firewall, and to the battery. SUSPECT either the firewall connector or the ammeter itself. These commonly melted the plastic around the meter in the dash unit, causing the connections to loosen.

Also, (at least on B bodies) somewhere up near the ignition switch wiring, there is a taped up "in harness" Y splice. I've found two cars in my lifetime with these broken.

Now, say, the first test is "OK" that is, you have battery at the large connector.

Now you want to try and "full field" the alternator. Disconnect the regulator connector (at the regulator) Pull both small wires off the alternator. Take your meter (to ground) WITH THE IGNITION in "run" find which wire has +12. I've forgotten the color. Take the wire which is "hot" and hook back up to the alternator. It does not matter which one goes where at the alternator.

Now, take a clip lead (test lead) and clip to the remaining "spade" (field connector) on the alternator. Ground the other end. You should see a small spark, if not in bright sun. Start the car, and the alternator should charge "full current." Don't do this for long, the voltage will really climb if you wind up the engine. You should hear the alternator grunt and whine, if the ammeter is working it should charge. TO BE SURE, measure both the voltage (to ground) at the battery and at the alternator "nut" connection. They should be close to the same voltage, not more than 1/2-1 volt AT THE VERY MOST apart.

on the regulator check the connector for continuity. One field wire should go directly to the "right hand" connector on the regulator, and the "left" or "center" pin should go to the other, and be "hot" with the key on.

Also, as with above, hook the alternator up "normal" and try grounding the field at the regulator, which will verify that

The alternator field is getting +12 through one lead, and the wires are both good up to the regulator. Make sure you ground the correct wire,  Ground the one which does NOT go to +12

If this doesn't work, but DID work when you "full fielded" the alternator, you have a wiring problem from the alternator to the regulator, or from the regulator to the +12 connection


CHECK that the regulator is GROUNDED. Scrape away the paint, and use "non rusty" bolts preferably with toothed (star) lock washers.

A few things:

If you have large wires going to the ammeter, you have the old "full current" ammeter. I can't stress enough to check, check, and recheck the firewall connector. ALL CHARGING CURRENT, ALL OF IT goes through that firewall connector TWICE.

If you have the old style ammeter, check the dash unit CAREFULLY. The slightest looseness of the wire connections shows that the plastic has melted near them and allowed things to get loose. At least some of these ammeters were held together by the very nuts that connected the wires. That meas that if the plastic softened, the wireing connection would loosen.

If you have the newer "shunt" type ammeter, they work more like a voltmeter. They "tap" a sensitive meter movement with fine wires across a section of the car wireing itself, and "measure" the "voltage drop" across that length of wire.



this is a quick diagram that is helpful http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/chrysler/45/charge.htm
« Last Edit: April 23, 2011 - 09:07:33 PM by dodj »
Scott
1973 Challenger  440 4 spd 
2007.5 3500 6.7 Cummins Diesel, Anarchy tuned.
Good friends don't let friends do stupid things. ........alone.

Offline barracuda7199

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Re: Charging problems
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2011 - 08:58:56 PM »
whats the voltage at the blue wire? it should have 12 volts with the key on. u could have disturbed a broken wire or someone else splicing job. run a wire from the battery positive to the terminal with the blue wire see what that does.
Brandon

71 Barracuda 440 727                                                                 
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Offline NorthWestcuda

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Re: Charging problems
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2011 - 11:39:34 AM »
I figured it out.  My return alternator field wire (red) came out of the engine harness connection and I didn't realize it.  Plugged it back in and attached it back into the funky splice, notice the alligator clip holding it back to the splice it was originally attached in my photo#2. 

Question #1 - In photo #2, Is this splice a factory splice?  It has the red return alternator wire in it, the solid blue VR wire that feeds volts to the VR, a solid blue wire going to the four prong ignition resister on the fire wall, and a blue with white(maybe yellow) strip wire going back into the harness.  It looks like it might be when I look on the 1973 wire diagram (to the right of the electronic choke control).

Question #2 - Since my new alternator kicks out 65 amps, I assuming I should run a wire to by-pass the instrument AMP gauge.  If I do this, can I buy a volt factory gauge to replace the factory AMP gauge?

Question #3 – Do I have a square back alternator photo#1 and what other alternator could I have?

Thanks for all your help guys.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2011 - 11:50:14 PM by NorthWestcuda »
1973 Cuda, 440 engine
1972 Chevy 4x4 PU stepside
2003 Ford F-350 Diesel

Offline ShelbyDogg

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Re: Charging problems
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2011 - 10:22:57 AM »
1. There was a factory splice there with a blue wire, but somebody cut it and changed it to a red wire.

2. You should always run a bypass wire with all of the modern alternators out there. When your bulkhead connectors start to corrode, resistance builds up, the connector gets hot and finally starts arcing. Sometimes your ammeter studs get grounded and the whole wiring harness melts or burns up your car. If you run a bypass wire, use some fusible link wire in series or use a 100 amp fuse at the battery post like some of the new cars have on them.
I installed a voltage gauge in my rallye cluster. See it on page 10 of my resto thread. You van get a mini digital meter off of Ebay for a couple of dollars and mount it elsewhere.

3. You have a square back alternator. Usually all squarebacks have the higher output.
Rob

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Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Charging problems
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2011 - 02:56:03 PM »
I run a 10 ga jumper wire from the back of the alt to the battery terminal on the start relay to bypass most of the current around the ammeter so thereis no need to replace the guage
the 70 had a heart back Alt , just a different layout of the diodes , the squareback is just fine 

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Offline NorthWestcuda

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Re: Charging problems
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2011 - 06:41:51 PM »
CP, when you run the new 10 ga wire do you leave the existing factory wire in place that feeds the gauges?  I was going to follow the "MAD Electrical" work around but I'm trying keep all my factory gauges working.  I think the one of the issues with the factory AMP gauge is that its not designed to handle that extra amount of amps from the higher output alternators?   
1973 Cuda, 440 engine
1972 Chevy 4x4 PU stepside
2003 Ford F-350 Diesel

Offline dodj

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Re: Charging problems
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2011 - 06:56:54 PM »
You can, (leave the ammeter connected) but it's not going to give you an accurate reading of what your charging system is doing. Electricity will follow the path of least resistance which in this case, would be the 10 ga wire. Some will go through the ammeter. Should add the voltmeter to keep tabs on the electrical system.

Doing the headlight relays too?  :2thumbs:
Scott
1973 Challenger  440 4 spd 
2007.5 3500 6.7 Cummins Diesel, Anarchy tuned.
Good friends don't let friends do stupid things. ........alone.

Offline NorthWestcuda

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Re: Charging problems
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2011 - 08:28:51 PM »
Thanks. Were can I get a "factory volt" gauge that fits into my factory ralley instrument panel.  I want it to look factory or close to.   
1973 Cuda, 440 engine
1972 Chevy 4x4 PU stepside
2003 Ford F-350 Diesel

Offline dodj

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Re: Charging problems
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2011 - 09:33:52 PM »
Thanks. Were can I get a "factory volt" gauge that fits into my factory ralley instrument panel.  I want it to look factory or close to.

There wasn't a factory volt gauge but Shelbydogg has posted a few pics on how to use a voltmeter out of - I think- a '80's van or something and how to modify your dash to accomodate it if you wish. I put my voltmeter in the lower left dash heater panel

« Last Edit: April 26, 2011 - 09:35:58 PM by dodj »
Scott
1973 Challenger  440 4 spd 
2007.5 3500 6.7 Cummins Diesel, Anarchy tuned.
Good friends don't let friends do stupid things. ........alone.

Offline ShelbyDogg

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Re: Charging problems
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2011 - 12:40:29 AM »
Here is mine. 8 volts on the left, 18 on the right. Out of  a late model dodge van  I see them all over the junk yards. It hooks to the imput of your regulator and ground.  I show how to put it in on page 10 of my retoration thread,  If you don't want to cut up your gauge cluster, get a digital voltmeter off of Ebay for a couple of dollars.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2011 - 12:42:08 AM by ShelbyDogg »
Rob

3 E-bodies, Megasquirt-1v3.0, Edelbrock Pro-Flo-1, Holley C950, FAST EZ-EFI; say no to carbs...yes to throttle bodies

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Offline harleysporster74

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Re: Charging problems
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2012 - 10:36:22 PM »
Hey dude!,love your car!,looks just like mine almost,my color is deep lliac peal from the house of pearl,anyway having a charging problem like yours after i got a after market chrome alt from speedway motors here in lincoln,ne,ever since my battery always needs charging once a week?,had it at the shop for 4 hrs friday they checked my batteryand alt both where good,they say 14 volts going in and only 12 volts going out!,still i think maybe the new alt is putting out to many amps for the old gauage so will be trying a bypass wire tommoorow hope it works. :useless:

Offline dougs bs23

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Re: Charging problems
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2012 - 03:11:32 PM »
So my question would be, when running the bypass from the main stud of the alt,  do you leave the factory wire attached too?     :dunno:
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