Author Topic: Bad Vibrations  (Read 2533 times)

Offline elevenssc

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Bad Vibrations
« on: May 02, 2011 - 10:05:34 PM »
Here's a head scratcher that I want to run by everyone...

I replaced the 40 year old OE harmonic balancer on my 1970 340 4-spd with a new internally balanced dampner from Summit.  After installation, I now have a a speed dependant vibration with the new dampner. :clueless:

The dampner is a Summit street/strip piece that "looks" good.  Compared it to the original 1970 piece and they look identical accept for the OE dampner has a sheetmetal part on the back that I'll call an "oil slinger".  I ran the engine from idle to about 2500 rpm and had bad vibrations everywhere.  The vibration seemed to reduce in intensity the longer I let the engine run.  Behind the wheel, the vibration was very evident in the seat of the pants and mirrors.  Under hood though, operating the throttle by hand, the engine seems to run smooth with no obvious evidence of vibration.

I did replace the dampner a year ago and had the same issue.  At that time I had just re-wired the car and didn't want to deal with another problem so I re-installed the OE dampner and returned the new one.  The vibration disappeared once the OE dampner was reinstalled.

Nothing about this makes sense.  This is the second time it has happened and I'm curious as to if anyone out there has run into this similar situation.

Thanks in advance for reading this far...




Offline femtnmax

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Re: Bad Vibrations
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2011 - 10:42:00 PM »
Obviously I would put your OEM damper back on for now.  Maybe look for a good-condition OEM damper that has minimal/no cracks in the rubber.  I found one like that for my 360.  Verify the timing marks on the damper line up correcty at TDC #1 piston.   Mark the damper outer and inner rings so you can quickly verify if the outer ring is slipping...not good if it is.
Another option is search around and spend the $$ for a better quality damper than Summit brand.  Summit does let you return stuff, I have never had an issue with returns.
Phil

Offline Milkmann

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Re: Bad Vibrations
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2011 - 08:59:01 PM »
I am curious why you would replace the OE damper when it works great with it on there?

Offline mopar12372

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Re: Bad Vibrations
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2011 - 10:01:42 PM »
the harmonic balancer is a important item on the engine . imop i would buy a new OEM  replacement or a after market . stay away from the
summit brand . its NOT what they say it is , they do sell their name brand stuff like jegs that isfrom  a good after marke company with out the name and box though.  :2thumbs: its worth power
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Offline LAA66

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Re: Bad Vibrations
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2011 - 10:31:05 PM »
 Maybe the original is better balenced to the motor. :dunno: Wondered about that possibility so haven't upgraded my 40 year old one yet. :popcorn:

Offline Todd Smith

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Re: Bad Vibrations
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2011 - 01:43:22 AM »
might check the key wayin the balencer, I broke one and it about shook the car to death. didn't do the front of the crank any favors either :clueless:
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Offline Cooter

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Re: Bad Vibrations
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2011 - 06:42:50 AM »
I've found on Small blocks, the aftermarket balancers are typical;ly for the 360(External balance) and NOT FOR THE 318/340 engines.
1958 plymouth Belvedere 2dr hd top "Christine" [OO)====V====(OO]
1969 dodge Charger "General Lee"         [___|______I______|___]                        
1968 Dodge Dart 2dr sedan 505" Stroker    (O]=0==========0=[O)                
1970 Challenger R/T Clone "Kowalski Special"   (OO) [___________] (OO)

Offline elevenssc

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Re: Bad Vibrations
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2011 - 11:58:35 PM »
I need to ask two questions...

1) Is it possible for an externally balanced crank to work with an internally ballanced harmonic ballancer? ( Yes, I know it is a silly question...but need to ask anyway)
2) How do you identify the difference between the internally and externally balanced crank?

I might try a higher quality balancer before tearing into the engine...

Thanks

Offline GranCuda1970

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Re: Bad Vibrations
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2011 - 12:03:54 AM »
I think all 440's were externally balanced with the balancer not sure of the others or if they were balanced together when I had my block machined I had them balance the flywheel also.

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Bad Vibrations
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2011 - 12:09:31 AM »
I need to ask two questions...

1) Is it possible for an externally balanced crank to work with an internally ballanced harmonic ballancer? ( Yes, I know it is a silly question...but need to ask anyway)

Yes it is possible , if the crank was zero balanced with added metal when it was built a external balance crank can be balanced to not need the weighted damper

 
2) How do you identify the difference between the internally and externally balanced crank?

you would have to pull the pan & look at the crank , if it has a casting # on the crank it has to be cast but if the counter weights have been welded with added metal & lighter rods & pistons were used it can easily be made to balance internally

I might try a higher quality balancer before tearing into the engine...

Thanks

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Offline IMNCARN82

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Re: Bad Vibrations
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2011 - 08:14:09 AM »
eh,,, If you only knew what I've been through...       :pullinghair:   R/T
'73 340 5 speed,RMS,BAER,... "Supercuda" (O[   ]||||[   ]O)  
'69 Dodge Charger 383,Auto                  (OiiiiiiiiiiIiiiiiiiiiiO)
13' Challenger R/T BlacktoP  6spd. (OO________OO)
71' Demon
75' Duster
87' Conquest TSI
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Robert    "cuda bob"

Offline cwestra

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Re: Bad Vibrations
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2011 - 08:48:05 AM »
Here's a head scratcher that I want to run by everyone...

I replaced the 40 year old OE harmonic balancer on my 1970 340 4-spd with a new internally balanced dampner from Summit.  After installation, I now have a a speed dependant vibration with the new dampner. :clueless:

The dampner is a Summit street/strip piece that "looks" good.  Compared it to the original 1970 piece and they look identical accept for the OE dampner has a sheetmetal part on the back that I'll call an "oil slinger".  I ran the engine from idle to about 2500 rpm and had bad vibrations everywhere.  The vibration seemed to reduce in intensity the longer I let the engine run.  Behind the wheel, the vibration was very evident in the seat of the pants and mirrors.  Under hood though, operating the throttle by hand, the engine seems to run smooth with no obvious evidence of vibration.

I did replace the dampner a year ago and had the same issue.  At that time I had just re-wired the car and didn't want to deal with another problem so I re-installed the OE dampner and returned the new one.  The vibration disappeared once the OE dampner was reinstalled.

Nothing about this makes sense.  This is the second time it has happened and I'm curious as to if anyone out there has run into this similar situation.

Thanks in advance for reading this far...
You mention speed dependent so I assume that the problem can be reproduced in any gear within the same general RPM range, right?  If that's the case then you're looking at the right area (in front of the trans).

You mention that it gets less the longer the engine runs.  Could something be heating up and expanding, possibly, making the vibration less intense?  Does it go away completely or just noticeably reduced?

I've been fighting a similar condition with my car ever since I finished a complete restoration on it 2 years ago ('70 Cuda).  In my case, however, I have a very noticeable vibration that comes in at around 3700 RPM along with a generally rougher than normal feel when cruising at lower RPM's.  When I am under the hood bumping the throttle it seems fine (smooth), but when I'm in the car reving it I feel the roughness, just like you mentioned.  When I'm on the road cruising as soon as I hit 3700 RPM I feel my vibration kick in.  Now, I may have 2 separate problems with my car.  One with the roughness and another with the vibration above 3700.  Yours it sounds like just a vibration and at lower RPM's than mine.  I have a 4-speed and I noticed that if I run the car up above 3700 RPM and push the clutch in and let it out slowly the vibration goes away and I can cruise above 3700 from that point on.  I still don't know why but at least I have identified a characteristic behavior that could lead me to a solution to the vibration part of my problems.

For the general roughness issue, I considered replacing the damper to see if that had an effect and I may still do so.  I suppose a slipped, or slipping, damper could cause it to be out of balance if the components that slip are out of balance by themselves.  When I look at my damper when the car is running it appears to be concentric and not wobbling.  Not sure if that is indicative of anything or not.  I do know that proper damping is more important than just correcting an annoying vibration.  Its main purpose is to dampen the power pulses transferred to the crank so that you don't break it.  So if you have a problem with an imbalanced damper it is important to fix it.

Someone else asked this in this thread and I don't recall seeing a response, but why did you replace the damper if it was not giving you a problem?  Have you tried replacing it with the original one to verify that the problem goes away?

I'll be following this thread closely, as it certainly has some similarities to my own problem.  Good luck finding a solution.
Corey - in Northern Indiana

Offline cwestra

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Re: Bad Vibrations
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2011 - 08:51:53 AM »
eh,,, If you only knew what I've been through...       :pullinghair:   R/T
Yeah.  I've followed your thread pretty closely too.
Corey - in Northern Indiana

Offline elevenssc

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Re: Bad Vibrations
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2011 - 09:16:47 AM »
I wanted to replace the dampner from a "preventative maintenance" perspective.  There were no signs that it needed to be replaced other than just looking old.

Cwestra...I have noticed a vibration at about 4000rpm in my 4-speed car too which resurrected this post again.  I will try the clutch thing next time to see what happens...

I am glad that I have this place to ask questions to.  Thanks for all the feedback!  I will definitely keep you in the loop as I find things out.

Offline elevenssc

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Re: Bad Vibrations
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2011 - 04:21:06 PM »
Just wanted to add that I find it a little "un-nerving" that by replacing the balancer with an identical new unit twice, a vibration shows up that won't even let me get out of the garage.  Why would this happen?  Something smells a little fishy here.

Dad let me inherit this car early and I remember when it was restored back in the early 80's.  The guy who did the engine work was...shall we say..."a lot of talk with a little bit of walk".  The car has been running fine for the last 29 years, although it has always felt a little "off"... performance not what we thought it should be for a 340.  Let's say that there is still untapped potential in this engine.

All the pieces of the puzzle are wanting me to dig into the engine to verify everything is correct.  I've got a sneaking feeling that the cam timing may be a tooth off too...something just isn't adding up.

Digging into the engine gets me face to face with the eternal hot rodders dilemma..."since I'm gonna be taking things apart anyway...".  :naughty: