Hotchkis/XV vs. Mix & Match Parts?

[Road_Runner]

Like most of us, my vision for my Barracuda is constantly evolving.  I've begun to warm to the idea of making it 'my car' and not worry so much with originality.  That said, I'm relooking at my suspension choices.  Without making it overly harsh, I'd like to maximize the handling and get as close as practical to what a modern Challenger would handle like.   I have picked up various parts including a front Helwig sway bar and am currently looking at torsion bars & rear springs, but before I go any further down that path I'd like to hear from others who have built their own suspension 'systems' and those who went the Hotchkis or XV kit route and the pros & cons of each.  Obviously, the kits include parts that most of us just bolting on parts wouldn't always change otherwise (upper control arms, etc.), and I'm sure these changes pay dividends but how much?  How stellar can I get with just bolting 1 1/8" front 3/4" rear sway bars, 1" torsion bars, xhd rear springs and a good set of shocks (have a set of Edelbrocks right now but may use those on the Roadrunner and go with Bilsteins on the Barracuda).  I know this has been discussed a lot here, so apoligies in advance.

Thanks, Jim

[CID440]

Bigger sway bars will be the most noticeable thing you can do.

I went with the hotchkis set up on my cuda,  they are tried and true IMO as I'm running full hotchkis on my time attack Celica.      The e body kit comes with fully adjustable tube upper control arms and relocation blocks for the upper control arm mounts.   Took away the bump steer and the positive camber gain while cornering also I can crank in the -1.5 camber I like to run on the auto-x tracks.

Also I got their subframe connectors under the car.  They hang a little low for my liking but the are effective.

As for the rear, I just put their sway bar back there.  Hotchkis had an issue with the drill and bolt end link frame mounts so welding them on was no big deal.

Only negative about the kit is that the upper control arms where the ball joint screws in has a sharp lip and slices the dust boots when you jack the front up.  A file takes care of that in a pinch.

Overall though it handles wonderful now compared to stock.

Next step is Reilly coilover K member swap

[CID440]

Oh forgot to mention that I am running the hotchkis big front sway bar and their tie rods with heim joint ends.   One other thing they offered me was their rear leaf springs,  they would have lowered the rear another inch or so.   I'm already dragging headers and now the subframe connectors so needless to say I opted not to get them.   Funny thing though, if you go on hotchkis website you'll notice the challenger that runs all their goodies doesn't have the subframe connectors on it (prolly cuz they drag like a mother). Lol

Hope this helps ya

Ron

[CID440]

Trying mobile upload,   Not a lot of body roll anymore

[CID440]

[Road_Runner]

Oh forgot to mention that I am running the hotchkis big front sway bar and their tie rods with heim joint ends.   One other thing they offered me was their rear leaf springs,  they would have lowered the rear another inch or so.   I'm already dragging headers and now the subframe connectors so needless to say I opted not to get them.   Funny thing though, if you go on hotchkis website you'll notice the challenger that runs all their goodies doesn't have the subframe connectors on it (prolly cuz they drag like a mother). Lol

Hope this helps ya

Ron

This does help, sounds like you sort of pieced together a solution yourself with a majority of pieces from Hotchkis.  I've done some SCCA autocrossing in the past, and unless they've created a musclecar class I can't see where a modified E Body could really be competitive the way they used to group together all modified cars.  But that isn't really my ultimate goal as I wouldn't necessarily pick a current Challenger for that kind of racing either.  My goal is more to negate the need for yet another car because I'm missing the good handling Z28, Trans Am & Vette I've owned through the years, and want something to fill that void.

Later, Jim

[Road_Runner]

Sweet!  Hard to tell your speed in these pics, but you can't get much flatter than that!  Very nice!

[CID440]

Agreed,  my main goal was to just make the brick handle a little better and am pleased with the results.   My number one track car is a front wheel drive Toyota Celica.  When I wanna pull some G's in the turns I'll just rock the yota.

[Road_Runner]

Agreed,  my main goal was to just make the brick handle a little better and am pleased with the results.   My number one track car is a front wheel drive Toyota Celica.  When I wanna pull some G's in the turns I'll just rock the yota.

This is excellent feedback, thanks!  Not exactly sure where this falls in the kit vs. asst. parts comparison, but since you're using mostly Hotchkis I'll put this down as a vote for Hotchkis. 

Thanks again, Jim

[brads70]

I'm using the Hotchkis upper control arm, and sway bars, and RCD Bilstein shocks. C-Body spindles and rotors/Viper calipers, and made my own adjustable strut rods mounted in RUBBER not solid like other designs. 1" torsion bars. I welded in the stock front and rear torque boxes and made my own subframe connectors.
 My intention was to make the Challenger handle as well as possible with bolt on parts so it could always be brought back to stock. Just a well handling street car not a race car.
 
I am VERY happy with the results. VERY happy!
I have yet to see someone other than Hotchkis actually measure their bump steer with the Hotchkis tie rod kit they offer. After doing the research on my own I have doubts to Hotchkis claim about what there kit measures out at.

More here if your interested...?
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

[Road_Runner]

I'm using the Hotchkis upper control arm, and sway bars, and RCD Bilstein shocks. C-Body spindles and rotors/Viper calipers, and made my own adjustable strut rods mounted in RUBBER not solid like other designs. 1" torsion bars. I welded in the stock front and rear torque boxes and made my own subframe connectors.
 My intention was to make the Challenger handle as well as possible with bolt on parts so it could always be brought back to stock. Just a well handling street car not a race car.
 
I am VERY happy with the results. VERY happy!
I have yet to see someone other than Hotchkis actually measure their bump steer with the Hotchkis tie rod kit they offer. After doing the research on my own I have doubts to Hotchkis claim about what there kit measures out at.

More here if your interested...?
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Interesting, wasn't necessarily planning on changing spindles but I bookmarked your thread and will read through it with interest.  Looking at my mix of possible parts, 1" tbars, 1 1/8" front & 7/8" rear Hellwig sway bars, Mopar xhd rear springs & either Edelbrock or Bilstein shocks (will probably try the Ede's first since I already have them). You see any problems so far?  If I need frame connectors I would be inclined to make my own or go with the XV's to keep them from hanging too low.  Not sure about control arm changes, etc. unless Im still not satisfied.

Thanks, Jim

[brads70]

Interesting, wasn't necessarily planning on changing spindles but I bookmarked your thread and will read through it with interest.  Looking at my mix of possible parts, 1" tbars, 1 1/8" front & 7/8" rear Hellwig sway bars, Mopar xhd rear springs & either Edelbrock or Bilstein shocks (will probably try the Ede's first since I already have them). You see any problems so far?  If I need frame connectors I would be inclined to make my own or go with the XV's to keep them from hanging too low.  Not sure about control arm changes, etc. unless Im still not satisfied.

Thanks, Jim

I went with the Hotchkis sway bars because they are REALLY light! (They are hollow). I would encourage you to build your own subframe connectors! Mine cost me maybe $10 in material. I have the US car tool subframe connectors but they didn't fit very well and it would have been a TON or work to fit them. Aaron Beck has a thread going about his subframe connectors to give you some idea's!  Mine are just 1"X2" but they work just fine for me! I think Aarons style are strucurally stronger but more intrusive and more labour to install?
I wouldn't use the A-Body LCA like I did if your not going with a taller spindle. That and the KPI differences between the E and C -Body spindles are the only reason I went that route.  The upper control arms I would try last.  In my opinion getting rid of the up to 1" of bump steer these cars have from the factory is the most important thing I would say. I ended up with at worst .057" bump steer in 3" of upward suspension travel.  That's a HUGE improvement over the stock set up! Camber gain is relative to the road surface, body roll, and suspension travel. It's the positive camber gain you want to get rid of. That's why I went with the C-Body spindle, it made the upper ball joint 3/4" ABOVE the innear pivot points. This all is relative to the ride height you want too. Me... I didn't want to be dragging my headers etc...

[Strawdawg]

Agreed,  my main goal was to just make the brick handle a little better and am pleased with the results.   My number one track car is a front wheel drive Toyota Celica.  When I wanna pull some G's in the turns I'll just rock the yota.

what size of tires are you running?  Other than the upper arms, I have mostly Hotchkis pieces. 

[CID440]

what size of tires are you running?  Other than the upper arms, I have mostly Hotchkis pieces.

235/60/15 up front and 255/60/15 in back

[autoxcuda]

Oh forgot to mention that I am running the hotchkis big front sway bar and their tie rods with heim joint ends.   One other thing they offered me was their rear leaf springs,  they would have lowered the rear another inch or so.   I'm already dragging headers and now the subframe connectors so needless to say I opted not to get them.   Funny thing though, if you go on hotchkis website you'll notice the challenger that runs all their goodies doesn't have the subframe connectors on it (prolly cuz they drag like a mother). Lol

Hope this helps ya

Ron

What brand headers do you have?

My TTI's work with this setup. I hear Dougs header have a little more ground clearance. But I don't run the Hotchkis 1" dropped rear front spring hangers. BUT I have very small diameter tires, 24.5" diameter. What brands/kind of subframe connectors to you have now that drag?

The yellow Challenger has subframe connector and so does the blue Challenger.

See the black subframe connector under the yellow car. Last two pictures are on the blue 440 Challenger