Author Topic: low ohms coil ?  (Read 6025 times)

Offline Talkwrench

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low ohms coil ?
« on: June 07, 2011 - 07:52:07 AM »
Can the standard mopar controller take a low ohms coil, say 6ohms?
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Offline UKcuda

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Re: low ohms coil ?
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2011 - 04:33:18 AM »
Can the standard mopar controller take a low ohms coil, say 6ohms?

6 ohms is not a low ohms coil.  The standard controller can handle up to about 5 amps, which means it can take a coil as low as about 2.5 ohms.  But a coil with impedence as high as that will likely cause hard starting from cold, which is why they use a lower impdence coil and a switched ballast resistor.
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Offline Talkwrench

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Re: low ohms coil ?
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2011 - 09:15:15 AM »
Opps I should have typed  0.6 ohms not 6.
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Offline Bullitt-

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Re: low ohms coil ?
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2011 - 09:27:28 AM »
Maybe you should look into the HEI   http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=62561.0;topicseen

Search the internet and you will see references to using different coils with the HEI. 
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Offline Strawdawg

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Re: low ohms coil ?
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2011 - 09:36:06 AM »
I use a Crane PS-91 which has 0.43 ohms with my HEI conversion.

Offline Talkwrench

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Re: low ohms coil ?
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2011 - 08:27:45 PM »
Yes thats the idea to do the HEI conversion, but later. for now I just wanted to know if controller -transistor can take a low ohm [0.6] coil in the meantime. A coil that could do both.. Like a Pertronix Flamethrower. Hopefully an upgrade for now..  :dunno:
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Offline UKcuda

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Re: low ohms coil ?
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2011 - 05:43:46 AM »
Yes thats the idea to do the HEI conversion, but later. for now I just wanted to know if controller -transistor can take a low ohm [0.6] coil in the meantime. A coil that could do both.. Like a Pertronix Flamethrower. Hopefully an upgrade for now..  :dunno:

There isn't really a coil that is ideal for both. 

To get the full benefit out of HEI you want a very low ohm coil (my coil is 0.4 ohms) but to make a coil like that work on the existing ECU without risking current overload you would need a ballast resistor in excess of 2 ohms.  That would mean the coil would only be getting about 2 volts and it might not run too well.

A low ohm coil fitted with the standard ballast resistor will still only get 3 volts or so across the coil, but assuming it is a high output coil (which low ohm coils generally are) it will likely still work OK because the voltage multiplication will be enough to make an adequate spark, although there will be a lot of stress on the ECU.

On the other hand, using something like a Pertronix flamethrower 1.5 ohm with standard ballast would be fine on the ECU and should also work absolutely fine with HEI; you will just have the dissatisfaction of knowing that you are wasting a part of the HEI's potential with that coil.
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Offline Talkwrench

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Re: low ohms coil ?
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2011 - 09:32:14 PM »
Thanks heaps for that.. Its such a black art to me an one could easily be fooled thinking using a "performance" coil or one with high volts or some sales spiel could in fact be worse for your car performance  :clueless:
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Offline UKcuda

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Re: low ohms coil ?
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2011 - 02:13:10 AM »
Thanks heaps for that.. Its such a black art to me an one could easily be fooled thinking using a "performance" coil or one with high volts or some sales spiel could in fact be worse for your car performance  :clueless:

I think you are right to be wary of sales talk on coils.  There isn't really as much difference between a lot of coils as they would like you to think.  Also they want you to think it's a black art, but in fact the essential science is quite easy.

The first thing to understand is that the ballast resistor is NOT there to give the coil more voltage when cranking.  It is there to protect the coil and the ECU when not cranking, and it does that by increasing the overall resistance in the circuit (which in turn reduces the amount of current flowing).

Apart from that you mainly just have to understand two things: Firstly that a coil works a bit like a transformer, so the more "primary" voltage you can put into it the more "secondary" voltage you will get out (as spark energy).  Secondly that the primary voltage which the coil can "see" will either be 12v (or 13.?v when the alternator is running) or it will be reduced below that if there is a ballast resistor.

The coil's "impedance" is a kind of resistance, like the ballast resistor's resistance, and the equation for the reduced voltage with a ballast resistor is quite easy, like this:

Reduced voltage = 12v x Coil impedance / (coil impedance + ballast resistance)

This is simplifying things a bit but it's close enough for most purposes, so to look at an example, say you have a "performance" coil rated at 40,000v with an impedance of 1.5 ohm and you run it with a 1.2 ohm ballast resistor.  The voltage across the coil will be about 7v (with engine running).

The coil was almost certainly rated at 40,000v based on the (artificial) assumption of having 12v across it, so in the example your 40,000v coil will actually deliver more like 7/12 of that, or about 33,000v.

That is one reason why HEI systems can deliver more punch, they run without a ballast resistor so there is a full 12v across the coil.

The other important thing about the resistance is that it slows down the speed at which the coil can charge.  Each time it fires a spark the coil takes some time to charge up again for the next one.  In the above example the total resistance of the coil and ballast is 2.7 ohm.  If it was just 1.5 ohm (no ballast) the coil would receive nearly twice as much current and it could get ready for the next spark much more quickly. 

In fact this doesn't make too much difference at low engine speeds when the time between sparks is longer, but as engine speed increases a higher resistance in the circuit will mean the coil having to deliver the next spark before it has got close to a full charge again, and the spark voltage will start to come down.

So that's two reasons why your 1.5 ohm Pertronix coil would give better spark on a HEI system, but it would still not be as good as a lower ohm coil at higher engine speeds, though to be honest you probably wouldn't even notice that.
'72 'cuda

Offline Talkwrench

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Re: low ohms coil ?
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2011 - 07:25:34 AM »
Oh boy.. Im taking it in.
first question, how many ohms is the standard Mopar balast?

Second.. Could I do this.. I have a 56 fairlane running a 292 Y block It has a Pertronix 2 steup in it the matching coil is the flamethrower .06ohm coil. But its that over kill on an old Y block that really wont rev much more than 4500rpm tops. If I ran the 1.5 ohm on the Cuda for now could I swap and use the 1.5 on the Fairlane and then the .06 on the Cuda when I go to HEI ?
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Offline UKcuda

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Re: low ohms coil ?
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2011 - 11:38:32 AM »
Oh boy.. Im taking it in.
first question, how many ohms is the standard Mopar balast?

I can't remember but it's one and a bit I think.  There were a couple of different ones.

Second.. Could I do this.. I have a 56 fairlane running a 292 Y block It has a Pertronix 2 steup in it the matching coil is the flamethrower .06ohm coil. But its that over kill on an old Y block that really wont rev much more than 4500rpm tops. If I ran the 1.5 ohm on the Cuda for now could I swap and use the 1.5 on the Fairlane and then the .06 on the Cuda when I go to HEI ?

I don't see why not, the Pertronix 2 is the same type of system as the HEI we are talking about.
'72 'cuda

Offline Talkwrench

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Re: low ohms coil ?
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2011 - 12:26:08 AM »
Well I guess it is.. It runs the full 12volts no balast, adjustable dwell. Its just a small unit no external module..
My thought was that the lower the ohms the quicker the refresh rate is, am I on the right track?
And with the the Yblock V8  its not a revver would it even be noticable ? One thing the Yblock guys did find out with dyno testing was opening up the spark gap did nothing.   :dunno:
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Offline UKcuda

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Re: low ohms coil ?
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2011 - 04:37:07 AM »
Well I guess it is.. It runs the full 12volts no balast, adjustable dwell. Its just a small unit no external module..
My thought was that the lower the ohms the quicker the refresh rate is, am I on the right track?

Exactly the right track.  I guess when you say it's adjustable you mean it automatically adjusts itself, and not that you can adjust it.

And with the the Yblock V8  its not a revver would it even be noticable ? One thing the Yblock guys did find out with dyno testing was opening up the spark gap did nothing.   :dunno:

I'd be surprised if you could notice any difference swapping the 1.5 coil in place of the 0.6 on your Ford as long as you have a good clean 12v to the system. 

When I first put HEI on my '72 Mustang (just a coincidence that is also a Ford) I used a coil of about 1.5 ohm which I already had on my shelf and I found it kept stalling at idle.  I swapped it for a cheap low ohm E-core coil and it cured the problem completely but I still wanted to find the cause. 

The funny thing was I noticed with the 1.5 coil it would idle OK and then stall when I pressed the brake pedal !!?  Then I discovered I could also make it stall by switching on the headlights.

It turned out to be because I was running the HEI supply directly from the ignition switch and the switch was so old and cruddy it was making a significant resistance in the circuit so the HEI was not getting a good 12v.  It must have been right on the borderline so that just the brake lights coming on was enough to tip it over the limit. 

After I discovered this I put in a relay to make sure there was a good strong 12v to the HEI module and then I found it would run fine with either coil.  So it seems the HEI systems are quite sensitive to having a good power supply.

It's interesting that the Y-block guys could not find an improvement opening up the plug gap.  The science of the spark jumping the electrode gap is quite complicated and I don't understand it all.   I think as you go wider on the gap you get a higher voltage spark but with a shorter duration, so it is always going to be a compromise.  I found that gapping my plugs to about 40 thou. gives a lovely big fat purple spark (at least out in the open air it does) so that's good enough for me.
'72 'cuda

Offline Talkwrench

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Re: low ohms coil ?
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2011 - 06:42:10 AM »
Yes that is what I meant the unit self adjusts..
You know that doesn't suprize me with the mix of old and new wiring.. You want to try working on a car thats from 1956..geez Ive had all sorts of mysteries its like spaghetti under that dash.. sometime things will just work when they want too :pullinghair:

When I put the Pertronix on I went 40 thou It ran fine but then one of the guys [very knowledgeable] told me about Ted Eaton and the dyno testing and how he found no difference, worse if anything but it was putting "load" on the electrics... On our early Holden Commodores the HEI on those factory the spark gap is 1.5mm![.059] But talking to a performance engine builder here they never seen any improvement going over 1.3mm [.051]
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Offline UKcuda

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Re: low ohms coil ?
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2011 - 05:57:32 PM »
I suspect with some people the size of plug gaps just follows the old American philosophy:

If something is good then more must be better and too much will be just right.

No offence to the yanks - LOL
'72 'cuda