What are the Pro's and Con's of running a thermostat?

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Offline 4Cruizn

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What are the Pro's and Con's of running a thermostat?
« on: June 09, 2011 - 09:30:49 PM »
I have been fighting with temp in the cuda and decided to pull the thermostat and see what temp I get without one.  I pulled the old one out and it said 160 on it but the car was running 180* driving and getting close to 200* when idle.  So now without the stat, I'm running 160*driving and 180* at an idle.  I like that much better but what do I lose?  This is a warm weather car and not run in very cold weather.  Pros and Cons please. 




Offline Strawdawg

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Re: What are the Pro's and Con's of running a thermostat?
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2011 - 10:17:19 PM »
Normally, the thermostat provides some restriction that increases the pressure inside the block so that any hot spots cannot cause localized boiling.  If running a high flow stat, or no stat, then a high volume pump is suggested in order to maintain the higher pressure in the block.  This is the primary purpose of the restriction.

In this case, what you lose is the quickened warm up period than minimizes wear on the engine parts because they do not expand to operating tolerances as fast as they do with a thermostat in place.

The old myth about the thermostat providing restriction in order to slow down the water flow in the radiator to increase cooling does not hold up thermodynamically as the system is a closed loop.  If the water passes thru the radiator more quickly, then it must pass thru the engine more quickly as well allowing it to hit the radiator again faster.  In the end, the cooling effect is the same, but, the engine temps may be more stable overall due to the higher internal pressure and the more constant movement.

You just proved this.

I would look for a higher flow thermostat in order to have the best of both worlds....faster warm up to minimize wear and a lower temp.   Most of the engineering stuff I read says 165 degs is about what it takes to get things to expand as designed.  Modern cars are designed to run even hotter to minimize emissions and make modern oils work to clean things up as well as possible.

A danger with vertical flow radiators comes when the radiator cap is exposed to the high pressure side of the flow and it is possible to overpower the cap which is not good.  Works best on cross flow radiators where cooling is further enhanced by the turbulence created by the velocity/pressure within the tube while keeping the the cap on the low pressure side
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011 - 10:34:45 PM by Strawdawg »

Offline 72cudamaan

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Re: What are the Pro's and Con's of running a thermostat?
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2011 - 10:27:28 PM »
Try knocking out the center of the stat. You will get an increase in flow yet maybe slow enough for engine warm up.
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Offline Cuda Cody

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Re: What are the Pro's and Con's of running a thermostat?
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2011 - 12:26:29 AM »
With todays oils you want to be around 180 to 200.   Any less and the fiction (wear) is greatly increased.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011 - 12:29:20 AM by C O D Y »
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Offline Aussie Challenger

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Re: What are the Pro's and Con's of running a thermostat?
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2011 - 09:22:23 AM »
Normally, the thermostat provides some restriction that increases the pressure inside the block so that any hot spots cannot cause localized boiling.  If running a high flow stat, or no stat, then a high volume pump is suggested in order to maintain the higher pressure in the block.  This is the primary purpose of the restriction.

Never heard that one before in 40 years of wrenching on vehicles, pressure is the same all through the water system, the thermostat does quicken warm up which is good and maintains min. temp to stop wear. The thermostat does restrict water going into the top of the radiator as the pump can pump more water into the tank than can pass down the tubes, this why there is a coiled spring/wire in the bottom hose so it doesn't collapse.
You can knock out the centre of the thermostat if you find that the water level is down more than usual which usually happens unless you run a catch tank. Me I would leave the thermostat in and make sure that the tubes are not blocked or the pump is not pumping properly, again I would fit an A/C water pump which usually has more vanes on the impeller, check the back clearance also.   :2thumbs:
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011 - 01:38:24 PM by 4Cruizn »
Dave

Offline Strawdawg

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Re: What are the Pro's and Con's of running a thermostat?
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2011 - 10:33:35 AM »

Normally, the thermostat provides some restriction that increases the pressure inside the block so that any hot spots cannot cause localized boiling.  If running a high flow stat, or no stat, then a high volume pump is suggested in order to maintain the higher pressure in the block.  This is the primary purpose of the restriction.

Never heard that one before in 40 years of wrenching on vehicles, pressure is the same all through the water system, the thermostat does quicken warm up which is good and maintains min. temp to stop wear. The thermostat does restrict water going into the top of the radiator as the pump can pump more water into the tank than can pass down the tubes, this why there is a coiled spring/wire in the bottom hose so it doesn't collapse.
You can knock out the centre of the thermostat if you find that the water level is down more than usual which usually happens unless you run a catch tank. Me I would leave the thermostat in and make sure that the tubes are not blocked or the pump is not pumping properly, again I would fit an A/C water pump which usually has more vanes on the impeller, check the back clearance also.   :2thumbs:

Well, Dave, fluid dynamics says you are wrong on the pressure being the same through out the system.  If you take a simple water line that is two inches in diameter and connect it to a house with a one inch water inlet, then the pressure rises as volume decreases.  Pressure is inverse to volume.  Fuel pumps, air compressors, cooling systems, whatever.  Passage size is a critical factor in designing heads and blocks for even cooling.  As stated, high pressure within the heads raises the boiling point above what is seen in the radiator and minimizes the potential for hot spots. 



The web is full of discussions on the matter.  www.stewartcomponents.com has a lot of tech discussion on the subject.   The Grapeaperacing.com site is down but it is widely cited in cooling matters.  It is referenced in many discussions and here is a site with a pertinent blurb from the GA site.  http://daliracing.com/v666-5/info/article_read.cfm?articleID=900

« Last Edit: June 10, 2011 - 01:40:12 PM by 4Cruizn »

Offline CudamanTom

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Re: What are the Pro's and Con's of running a thermostat?
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2011 - 11:01:39 AM »
 :popcorn:
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1971 Cuda 440-727 - (clone)


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Offline Strawdawg

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Re: What are the Pro's and Con's of running a thermostat?
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2011 - 11:06:46 AM »
few more quotes from the grapeape site-last one is particularly pertinent.


"If the coolant begins to boil, steam pockets
will form and detonation will limit power (by forcing
you to retard timing to less than optimum or run the
engine cooler)...As coolant flows through the system it
absorbs heat from the engine parts that it comes in
contact with. As it does this some of the coolant will
boil and form tiny steam bubbles (absorbing a lot of
heat in the process) on the internal engine surfaces.
When these bubbles get larger they become a flow
restriction and the flowing fluid pushes them away
from the surface and that process starts over again.
The process is called the Nucleate Cooling
Phase. When the coolant boiling point is too low or
the flow rate is too slow, these bubbles can become
too large and form steam pockets that insulate that
surface from being cooled. This usually happens
around the combustion chambers, the hottest parts
of the engine. Once the steam pocket forms the
surface will rise in temperature (even though the
coolant is not overheating) and cause that part to
overheat, which can cause detonation and / or other
problems."

"I'm sure that you've read or heard
somewhere before that water is the best coolant.
This is true as far as being able to absorb heat for a
given flow rate, water does do that the best. Water
also boils at a lower temperature than other coolants
and can develop steam pockets easier, so it's not
the best coolant in that respect. A water / ethylene
glycol mixture will boil at a higher temp and resist
steam pockets better than plain water, the down fall
is that it has to have a higher flow rate, but that is
easy to accomplish."

"The pressure in the block is higher than the
radiator pressure; this is because the pump is
building pressure due to the thermostat being a
restriction. This pressure raises the boiling point of
the coolant and reduces the chance of steam
pockets, so never run with out a thermostat (or some
form of restriction).
The radiator cap will usually hold 15-18 psi,
if the radiator holds the system at 15 psi, the boiling
point of plain water will be raised to 250° F. The
water pump can then make an additional 40-45 psi
in the engine and bring that boiling point close to
300° F. So as you can see, pressure is important."

Offline Strawdawg

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Re: What are the Pro's and Con's of running a thermostat?
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2011 - 11:12:34 AM »
something to remember about thermostats...they begin to open at the rated temperature (hopefully) but they may not be fully open until the coolant is another 20 degs warmer.

Some of the race stats have holes drilled into them as Jason suggests above.  This slows down the warm up a bit, but, it helps the thermostat maintain a temp around the desired temp.  Of course, if the radiator, shroud, and fan flow is lacking, this may not help much on a street car as the temp will rise to meet the weakest part of the system.

I always drill a hole or two in the stat just to make it easier to get all the air out, but the above may be a better reason.

Offline 4Cruizn

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Re: What are the Pro's and Con's of running a thermostat?
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2011 - 01:48:02 PM »
Well some good info here but I'm still not sure what to do.  I did cut the center section out of the old one I had as I was told not to run without the ring in there.  I have a new thermostat I bought yesterday that I installed and I just felt it was running to hot even though it was a 160* stat.  My engine guy told me that if it gets close to 200* . . I should shut it off.  Then I go to buy a replacement and the stock one offered is rated at 195*!  So the factory put in a 195* thermostat as the stock one!   

Offline Strawdawg

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Re: What are the Pro's and Con's of running a thermostat?
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2011 - 03:08:36 PM »
Not sure what your builder has against 200 degs, but, I would put a 180 deg unit in it and drill as suggested above.  That should stabilize the thermostat operation somewhat altho the warm up will be a bit slower.

Running hotter at idle is a lack of air flow which takes you back to the fan and shroud.

The 160 running at 180 is probably due to the stat not being fully open until that point and/or an old tired core.  Takes a pretty good system to run much under 180 on a hot day for most cars.

I suspect many would not see a problem with 200 degs at idle...

Offline CUDA JAS

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Re: What are the Pro's and Con's of running a thermostat?
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2011 - 04:50:04 PM »
Not sure what your builder has against 200 degs, but, I would put a 180 deg unit in it and drill as suggested above.  That should stabilize the thermostat operation somewhat altho the warm up will be a bit slower.

Running hotter at idle is a lack of air flow which takes you back to the fan and shroud.

The 160 running at 180 is probably due to the stat not being fully open until that point and/or an old tired core.  Takes a pretty good system to run much under 180 on a hot day for most cars.

I suspect many would not see a problem with 200 degs at idle...

I agree, my 360 runns away a 200 on most days...never a problem!
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Offline Cuda Cody

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Re: What are the Pro's and Con's of running a thermostat?
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2011 - 05:20:05 PM »
Is 200 really that big of a deal?  Stock Vipers run 224 before the high fan even comes on.  200 doesn't scare me one bit at all.
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Offline 422STROKER

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Re: What are the Pro's and Con's of running a thermostat?
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2011 - 05:27:11 PM »
I run a 180 stat in mine.

Tom

Runs about 175 moving and will creep to 200ish in heavy hot traffic..

Tom
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Offline quapman

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Re: What are the Pro's and Con's of running a thermostat?
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2011 - 06:03:51 PM »
I run a 165 high-flow in my 440 Challenger. Tried a 185 and it ran too warm for my comfort level, especially in slow traffic. i still need to block off my intake crossover, which I believe will cool everything down a smidgeon more.

Running NO stat will make for an inconsistent level of performance. With a stat, you've got a stable temp all the time, but without one, you might see great performance on a warm day, then crap on a cooler day or vise-versa.

Jason's weep/vent holes are always a good idea.

How big is your rad? How many rows? Shroud?
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