Author Topic: Handling is not right, dangerous at best.  (Read 7317 times)

Offline brads70

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Re: Handling is not right, dangerous at best.
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2011 - 11:43:57 PM »
So if I'm reading that right? You have .330" toe in or out? Must be a typo?  :grinyes: That's a massive rear sway bar too? That might cause some negative handling issues too when cornering? The front tires are over 9" tread width! That will be a handful on anything but a dead flat road? The ruts left by heavy trucks would make for a white knuckle ride I would think?
Sound like a great project! Lets see some pictures already! :clapping: :2thumbs:
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0




Offline mojavered

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Re: Handling is not right, dangerous at best.
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2011 - 12:29:30 AM »
I had some 13.5" wide tires on my truck and when they found a groove, you better be ready.  Keep us posted.
Jason

Offline autoxcuda

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Re: Handling is not right, dangerous at best.
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2011 - 03:15:45 AM »
...

Here's a run down of the parts replaced: upper/lower ball joints, all bushings and bolts, front disc brake conversion (all bearings, etc), steering box from Year One, outer/inner tie rods, adjusting sleeve, pitman arm, 1 1/8" front sway bar, sway bar links, Mopar torsion bars, Mopar leafs, 1"rear sway bar with links, shackles, shocks all around and Boss rims with 245/45Z-18s all around.

Here's the alignment specs: Camber - left= 0.1; right= 0.2, Caster - left= 1.4; right= 1.1; Toe - left= 0.17; right= 0.16. It does seem like its "crowning", meaning, I reach a happy spot in the middle but I have to fight it. Its like the tires are pointing away from each other. Now the guys that did the alignment said hes worked on Mopars for a 100 yrs, blah, blah, same old story.

So who knows about that but I have a lot invested in this car so its no slouch and my upgrades I am waiting to do at the moment is a complete FAST fuel injection, Keisler A41 trans (4L60E) conversion and of course MSD ignition. Based on the numbers you told me Brad, this thing isnt no where close. I will take this back to the guy and tell him to put it as such and we will go from there. She will be down until I get everything back in, new engine, trans, FI, etc....never ends!!!

What shocks do you have? What side torsion bars are you running?

The low profile wide tires with heavy 18" rims don't help the tracking.

Did the other musclecars you've owned have low profile tires like this one?
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Offline kylewhunt1

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Re: Handling is not right, dangerous at best.
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2011 - 06:26:04 AM »
Well, it looks like the original poster only posts on here once every 3-6 months, so we might have to wait a while to get this one resolved.

Just poking some fun.

Offline T569Bee

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Re: Handling is not right, dangerous at best.
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2011 - 12:52:48 PM »
I would start looking at welds on the K frame, binding at steering box to collum ,Structural cracks on frame and suspention pick up points, carefully inspect leaf spring eye bushing because rear steer is very scarry weird . Fourty year old cars can have many issues and or trama in its life .

Offline jimynick

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Re: Handling is not right, dangerous at best.
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2011 - 12:02:39 AM »
Kyle, are those specs negative or positive in degrees?

Offline AARuFAST

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Re: Handling is not right, dangerous at best.
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2011 - 09:41:13 PM »
Just read this thread.
What brand of tire are u running on.
Read my thread on BF GOODRICH TIRE failure.
Your tires may have ply separation.
If your running or bias tires that is the problem.
Radials give on the side walls where the bias are rigid no flexing on side walls.
Mounted the goodyear bias tires on my AAR and it is all over the road.
Acceleration does not affect the handling as u mentioned.
Check your Motor Mounts E bodies break a lot of them from the engine torque.

Gran Coupe Convertible
1970 AAR Cuda
1970 Gran Coupe Ragtop. 1 of 66
Gran Cpe Convertible 1 yr only.

" I Want to Ride "

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2 minutes of my life!!!!"

Offline HP2

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Re: Handling is not right, dangerous at best.
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2011 - 11:51:39 AM »
Hey HP2, between defending the country from terrorist, ensuring no sicko messes with my kids, ensure my kids do well in school, balance a marriage and work on two other hot rods, I think I do pretty well to find time to get on the internet.

Agreed and no mal-intent intended. Just pointing it out as it appeared we were hitting you with a bunch of questions all at once that is common among regular posters who anticipate quick follow up and easy answers to their questions.

Here's a run down of the parts replaced: upper/lower ball joints, all bushings and bolts, front disc brake conversion (all bearings, etc), steering box from Year One, outer/inner tie rods, adjusting sleeve, pitman arm, 1 1/8" front sway bar, sway bar links, Mopar torsion bars, Mopar leafs, 1"rear sway bar with links, shackles, shocks all around and Boss rims with 245/45Z-18s all around.

Here's the alignment specs: Camber - left= 0.1; right= 0.2, Caster - left= 1.4; right= 1.1; Toe - left= 0.17; right= 0.16. It does seem like its "crowning", meaning, I reach a happy spot in the middle but I have to fight it. Its like the tires are pointing away from each other. Now the guys that did the alignment said hes worked on Mopars for a 100 yrs, blah, blah, same old story.

Decent list of parts that just about covers any/all requirements for a rebuild/upgrade. Assumption here, but that rear sway bar does mount under axle, correct? 

Are your alignment measurements in inches, mm, or degrees? Readings in degrees will appear out of wack compared to inches or mm. Looking at these, regardless of inches or degrees, it appears that you have postive camber, positive caster and negative toe ("out" is the more common term).  Not exactly a bias ply alignment, but close to it.  Modern radials will tolerate a wider range of adjustment before they wear oddly, so in this case the 100 years of mopar knowledge your alignment guy has may be working against the poor guy. If that is the case, then there are a few issues you might want to address.

Camber-depending on how aggresive you drive, you want to go negative here. For a casual cruiser, 0 to -1 degree on both sides is good. If you really want to get after it in corners, maybe bump that up to -2. Add even more if you autocross it regularly.  With your wide tire selection, I'd say stick with no more than -1*.

For caster, you want as much positive as possible. This becomes a compromise with camber because of the mopar design, so gaining one means you'll have to give up the other. Other makes seperate these two specs with shims, but the mopar lacks teh ability to do that, hence the require compromise. +2 degrees may be the max you can get with the stock arms and centric bushings, but I've read of some guys getting into the 3 degree range. A reasonably quick and inexpensive way to work araound this is to use Moog offset upper control arm bushings installed the opposite way the instructions say may allow you to get into at least the 3* range, maybe even in to the 4* area. If you want to go whole hog on this one, aftermarket tubular arms are typically built with additional caster built in the ball joint mount. Budget may dictate the choice here-two sets of offset bushings are $60. A pair of tubular arms start around $300 and go up from there.

Toe, if you indeed have negative toe, that may be where a big part of the problem lies. While toe out assists with and creates more stability on turn in on a corner, it is a race only spec that will make the average street car feel dangerously touchy. Toe out is great for a continues radius corners at high speed, but scary on slight turns like lane changes. All it takes is a slight flick of the wheel and the car reacts unexpectedly quickly to the input. Combine that with the wide tire you have and a road that may not be perfectly flat, and it may suddenly feel like the car has a mind of its own. Definetly want positive or toe in measurements here. Total toe would be -.06" per side for a total combine toe of no more than -.125 inches, not degrees.

The 35 series rubber on the 18" wheels will also magnify the changes in alignment because the short sidewall does not deflect much and will translate even the slightest movements more directly. Combine this is the toe out spec and it could be a real handful to drive.

The torque steer still has me scratching my head. Typically this is caused by deteriorating spring bushings. Since yours are new, that isn't a factor. You might eyeball all the mounting brackets to ensure that there are no cracks developing there, or as suggested, make sure motor mounts are good. I think the motor mounts may be a stretch for this fix, but they are worth looking at as well as the trans mount.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2011 - 11:24:33 AM by HP2 »

Offline kylewhunt1

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Re: Handling is not right, dangerous at best.
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2011 - 08:38:47 PM »
Ok, heres an update on the car. I have the drivetrain out and installed the brain for the trans, FI and sanded and repainted the engine compartment. Not the best but it will do for another 10 or so years. Anyway, here is a pic from the alignment specs. I will be TDY for two weeks in GA and SC so will be awhile before I can get back on. I cant resize the photo so heres a link to it.

http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/y313/kylewhunt1/Cudasheet.jpg

Offline mjb765

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Re: Handling is not right, dangerous at best.
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2011 - 09:41:58 PM »
Is it me of does the L/F look out of range. Here is my alignment sheet and the car tracks straight and predictable.

Offline HP2

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Re: Handling is not right, dangerous at best.
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2011 - 11:15:40 AM »
Ok, heres an update on the car.

http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/y313/kylewhunt1/Cudasheet.jpg


I hate to tell you this, but you went in to the shop with a better alignment than you came out with. The specified range is the original, bias ply tire recomended settings and they set it up smack dab in to them. Those specs are best designed for an E70x14 bias ply tire. Combine them with your short sidewall, wide ratio tires, and that baby'll hunt with the best bird dogs out there. You'll need to go back to the settings you had before.

Offline brads70

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Re: Handling is not right, dangerous at best.
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2011 - 11:21:16 AM »
I hate to tell you this, but you went in to the shop with a better alignment than you came out with. The specified range is the original, bias ply tire recomended settings and they set it up smack dab in to them. Those specs are best designed for an E70x14 bias ply tire. Combine them with your short sidewall, wide ratio tires, and that baby'll hunt with the best bird dogs out there. You'll need to go back to the settings you had before.

 :iagree:  I just didn't want to be the one to tell ya.  :faint:
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline T569Bee

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Re: Handling is not right, dangerous at best.
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2011 - 01:35:58 PM »
Not only is the castor not good  , but look at the rear toe out problem !Looks like you have a bent ,horse shoe shaped ,rear axle tube . You will never get a good steering feel with toe out that much in the rear. A good frame shop may be able to correct  the problem or a new tube .Should be much closer to "0" toe with positive .05 ideal on both sides .rear camber should be close to "0" also. No wonder you have a rear steer scary car !

Offline kylewhunt1

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Re: Handling is not right, dangerous at best.
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2011 - 06:35:42 PM »
Well, s$%t. Ok guys thanks. I have the original wheels with 205-70s on them and it was about the same. I will have to wait until I get it back together and get the body/frame/rear end straighten provided I can find a shop here in Jersey that will do it. Once I get that done, I will take it to the alignment shop and have it redone. What should I tell them to get the car at?

Offline T569Bee

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Re: Handling is not right, dangerous at best.
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2011 - 09:30:45 PM »
 Straighter out the rear as previously stated and set caster to  2-4 deg positive and 0 to -1 camber on front to make car  "Handle" best with radial tires .