Brakes with never ending story.....

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    Author Topic: Brakes with never ending story.....  (Read 4019 times)

    Offline 4yuckfous

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    Brakes with never ending story.....
    « on: July 01, 2011 - 02:17:48 AM »
    Good morning together

    My brakes don't work properly.
    Here the short story:
    This spring I had a leak on the original sender of my brake distribution block,
    so I decided to change the complete brake system.
    - Brake oil flaking the chassis under the distribution block.
    - First we did the new paint job.
    - I took out the only 1 year old brake booster (it was not more original one),
    - the master cylinder (not more original),
    - the leak original distribution block
    - and the metering valve block.

    A new restored 11" booster and the rest reproduction parts will solve the problems!
    Are you thinking ?

    No way !!!

    - The new booster -> perfect (Good job from Passion4Mopars) "Thank you"
    - Master brake cylinder -> it works
    - Metering valve block -> it leaks
    - Distribution block -> it leaks

    First:
    - We take appart the metering valve block and what surprise:
    - The O-Ring seal has craks and was squeezed.
    - A new O-Ring resolved the problem.
    - Done

    Secondly:
    - We take appart the new distribution block (the lower big screw) and what surprise:
    - The O-Ring seal has craks and was squeezed too !
    - A new O-Ring resolved the problem.
    - Done ?
    - No !!!
    - The block leaks on top!
    - Appart and a new copper ring.
    - Done ?
    - Not realy !!!
    - If we push the brake pedal, the brake doesen't release......
    - Deconstruct the compete block.
    - And what did we locate ? The new block doesen't have brake liquid recirculation channels.
    - Screw driver and hammer resolved that problem, the new channels work.
    - Done?
    - No !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    - If we brake slowly, the system works.
    - But if we knock fast on the pedal the rear brakes don't work!
    - If we remain with the same pressur on the pedal, after 5-20 seconds, the pedal goes down
    and the rear brakes do work.
    - With a stethoscope, we located the problem in the ?? DISTRIBUTION BLOCK, what surprise...
    - It sounds like the spring on the block jumps up.
    - Probably the valve in the block splined and releases after a while.

    Does anybody know about such a problem or have experiance with the distribiution block?
    Is it normal, that from a new master cylinder the valve comes out for about 1/4"?

    Thanks for some happy feedbacks.
    Andrea
    « Last Edit: July 07, 2011 - 04:49:15 AM by 4yuckfous »
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    Offline Strawdawg

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    Re: Brakes with never ending story.....
    « Reply #1 on: July 01, 2011 - 11:01:24 AM »
    Been discussion about bad repro proportioning valves so I guess you were just smarter than most in figuring out why/what the problems were.  I had thought about replacing mine, but, after reading various comments, I decided to leave it alone.
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    Offline femtnmax

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    Re: Brakes with never ending story.....
    « Reply #2 on: July 02, 2011 - 10:07:41 PM »

     :iagree:
    Maybe check around and find a good used one.  After all the problems with new metering blocks I used my original one and its working perfectly.
    Steves muscle car parts in Arkansas would have good used parts.  There is a Dean's mopar parts near Calgary that has good used parts.   PG Classics in Canada may sell new distribution block.
    Let us know what you end up doing to fix the last of the leaks.
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    Phil

    Offline 4yuckfous

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    Re: Brakes with never ending story.....
    « Reply #3 on: July 04, 2011 - 03:23:07 PM »
    Is there original realy a proportioning valve, after the metering valve ?   
     :clueless:
    (see page 5-59) on the service manual
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    Offline Strawdawg

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    Re: Brakes with never ending story.....
    « Reply #4 on: July 04, 2011 - 04:57:30 PM »
    I believe later years had a combination valve...early had separate valves...what is your year?
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    Offline 4yuckfous

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    Re: Brakes with never ending story.....
    « Reply #5 on: July 04, 2011 - 05:59:10 PM »
    1970 build Nov. 1969
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    Offline Strawdawg

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    Re: Brakes with never ending story.....
    « Reply #6 on: July 04, 2011 - 08:00:00 PM »
    I have a manual for a '70 and it looks as if there is a proportioning valve in the line going to the rear brakes....as my car is a '73, I am not familiar with the '70, but, most, if not all, cars have to have a proportioning valve to reduce the pressure to the rears.

    Looks to me like the 70 should have a Tee/safety switch block, a metering block and a proportioning valve, but, someone that actually owns the car should chime in :)
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    Offline brads70

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    Re: Brakes with never ending story.....
    « Reply #7 on: July 04, 2011 - 09:14:58 PM »
    Quote from: 4yuckfous on July 04, 2011 - 03:23:07 PM
    Is there original realy a proportioning valve, after the metering valve ?   
     :clueless:
    (see page 5-59) on the service manual
    Mine just came with the metering valve? ( 1970) I ditched it and went with the truck rear wheel cylinders and the Wilwood adjustable valve. No issues so far!  :2thumbs:
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    Brad
    1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
    Barrie,Ontario,Canada
    Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

    My restoration thread 
    http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
     My handling upgrade post
    http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

    Offline Strawdawg

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    Re: Brakes with never ending story.....
    « Reply #8 on: July 04, 2011 - 09:43:24 PM »
    are we talking about disc front brakes, or drums?  don't know if that makes a difference, or not :)  don't think it should
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    Offline 4yuckfous

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    Re: Brakes with never ending story.....
    « Reply #9 on: July 05, 2011 - 01:04:12 AM »
    front disc (Wilwood)
    rear drum
     :working:
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    Offline Strawdawg

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    Re: Brakes with never ending story.....
    « Reply #10 on: July 05, 2011 - 09:58:13 AM »
    Brad's use of the adjustable valve might be the best final solution for you to get balanced braking...maybe he will link you to his install
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    Offline a440plus6

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    Re: Brakes with never ending story.....
    « Reply #11 on: July 05, 2011 - 10:44:13 AM »
    Quote from: 4yuckfous on July 04, 2011 - 03:23:07 PM
    Is there original realy a proportioning valve, after the metering valve ?   
     :clueless:
    (see page 5-59) on the service manual
    Andrea, yes there is....it is a threaded stud that a push on booted connector slips on to.
    Your system takes 2 blocks....proportioning valve and smaller (3 inlet/outlet holes) distribution block which can be located under drivers seat on some early 70 builds or is bolted to prop valve thru bracket and bolt.
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    Offline brads70

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    Re: Brakes with never ending story.....
    « Reply #12 on: July 05, 2011 - 05:34:04 PM »
    Quote from: Strawdawg on July 05, 2011 - 09:58:13 AM
    Brad's use of the adjustable valve might be the best final solution for you to get balanced braking...maybe he will link you to his install
    [/quote

    Here's the link....
    http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=66387.msg690938#msg690938
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    Brad
    1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
    Barrie,Ontario,Canada
    Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

    My restoration thread 
    http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
     My handling upgrade post
    http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

    Offline 4yuckfous

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    Re: Brakes with never ending story.....
    « Reply #13 on: July 06, 2011 - 12:22:40 AM »
    It  works.
     :eek4:
    I will tell you more later.
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    The streets don't get wider, if you drive slower !

    Offline 4yuckfous

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    Re: Brakes with never ending story.....
    « Reply #14 on: July 06, 2011 - 12:40:24 PM »
    Now it goes on...
    I took apart the new distribution block on the lover end.
    The valve doesn’t look really nice. The corners from the valve are just a little bit cant. :poopoke:
    The valve it’s heavy and made from brass.
    Just screw back the cover from the lower end from the distribution block without anything inside.
    Back on the test brake stand.

    Result:
    Full brake power on the rear axle.
    (over brake)
    Perfect…..the rest works.


    So I took apart the old distribution block.
    The old spring is about 1 cm longer than the new one.
    In the old one is a washer on top from the seal, where the valve goes in (this washer is missing on the new one).
    The valve is red anodized aluminum ??? It seems that someone change that onetime. But it looks perfect.

    I fixed the old valve, the old spring, the old washer and the old seal on the lower end from the new distribution block.
    No bleeding noting, just for the test.

    Back on the test brake stand.

    Result:
    PERFECT. :2thumbs:
    The rear drum brakes have about 50% performance from the front disc brakes.
    No adjustable proportion valve was required.

    Tomorrow again the test on the road license department………..   :blah:
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