Height Difference - Hotchkis Leafs

[kielbasa]

Hi guys, posting this for informational purposes in case one is debating these springs.
These measurements are from my car - with the wide production tolerances that seem to be prevalent amongst these old mopars, your measurements may vary.
Measurement is from ground height (flat concrete floor) to center of wheel well opening lip.
Stock height front spring hanger used in both cases (not the lower height that the Hotchkis hanger has provisions for).
G60 tires (26" diameter)
NO shocks installed
Hotchkis leafs: 26"
Original AAR leafs: 28.25"
Remember, these dimensions are at the wheel opening, (at the bumper the differences would be even greater).

That's over 2" drop - probably add another inch if you were to use the lower position on the front hanger.

[Road_Runner]

I take it that your car sitting this low isn't what you had in mind?  I've had the same concerns while shopping for a new set of rear springs.  I don't want the rear of my Barracuda sky high, but nothing looks worse to me than one of these old cars sitting down in the back with the wore out springs look.  Several Mustangs I've owned through the years started out this way when I bought them & I immediately put better springs in back.  I'm leaning heavily to the Mopar XHD springs for just this reason...

Later, Jim

[kielbasa]

Correct, my car is an AAR and I didn't want the rear low. I wanted to keep as close to stock height as possible. After speaking with Hotchkis, they told me if I used the stock front hanger location, that it would be 1/2" lower than stock - that's why I bought them. Figured I could sacrifice the 1/2" and gain some handling improvements, etc. Unfortunately that wasn't the case, not even close.

[HP2]

That's a big drop, but AARs did have a different spring pack on them than any other car. I bet Hotchkis never considered that subtle difference.
FWIW, on my car with worn out original leafs it was around 25.5. With my new zero arch springs its around 24. I checked both using a 26" tall tire.

[burdar]

I just had a friend of mine who works at a dealership order me some MP HD springs.  He gave me a really good price so we'll see how they work.  They are listed as being factory on 440 cars.  I don't know if they will sit higher then the small block HD Rallye suspension did or not.  I've heard the MP springs will sag a little so that won't be a bad thing if the rear end is a little high in the beginning.

I previously looked into having the original springs re-arched.  Without the car completely together and sitting on its suspension, there is no way to get a "before" measurement to give to the spring shop.  Even then, they said there was no guarantee the springs wouldn't sag right back down.

[Strawdawg]

That's a big drop, but AARs did have a different spring pack on them than any other car. I bet Hotchkis never considered that subtle difference.
FWIW, on my car with worn out original leafs it was around 25.5. With my new zero arch springs its around 24. I checked both using a 26" tall tire.

My Hotchkis springs came out to about 24" on 26" tires which made me happy as I prefer the look and I know it will handle much better than before.

[dodj]

My 15 year old Mopar XHD's have me at 24" with a 25.5" tire. Don't remember what they were 15 years ago though.

[boydsdodge]

I installed a couple of pairs for guys around here and they love the ride and stance.
 

[Road_Runner]

Summit Racing has all of their Hotchkis stuff for 10% off through Monday, anybody have a picture of their Cuda/Barracuda with the Hotchkis rear springs?  At $2336.39 plus $100 Summit Bucks for later, I don't think you can do better than that on the whole kit....

Later, Jim

[Strawdawg]

Rear springs...had not done the front end yet in this pic

[Road_Runner]

Rear springs...had not done the front end yet in this pic

Thanks for the pic!  Definitely looks lower than mine, but I'm not sure what springs I have since the original owner towed her boat with the Barracuda so may have put stiffer springs on for that...  I'm going to measure mine and see if I can 'visualize' what it would look like with the Hotchkis springs.

Thanks again, Jim

[Road_Runner]

Just measured mine and with 28" rear tires and current springs it was 27" to the fender lip measuring straight up along the center of the wheel.  Am I likely to lose the 2+ inches that Kielbasa did on his AAR?  Does the Hotchkis hanger with two positions provide for more or less drop than the stocker hanger?  It's unclear to me whether it raises or lowers the height vs. stock hangers.  I'd like to keep the stance of my car close to what it is today, but otherwise would strongly like to better the handling over stock.

I know this is a subjective question, but several of you have been through this process already: how much better is the Hotchkis package than just adding front & rear sway bars (I have 1 1/8 Helwig front & original rear to go on), xhd springs, bigger front t-bars (I have new .96 bars to go on), better shocks (have Edelbrocks IAS, but may upgrade)?  I'm starting with no sway bars, std T bar, cheap shocks, etc.  I could always add the Hotchkis upper control arms, strut rods, chassis stiffening, etc. later.

Thanks, Jim

[Strawdawg]

Based on my car, I would guess yours will drop 2" to 25" to the fender lip.  My hangers only have one mounting hole in them and the instructions on the site only show one hole so I don't know how far apart they are, but if they are not centered in the bracket, then I would guess the lower hole might lift the car somewhat.

Lowering the stance lowers the center of gravity and the car has to handle better.  Also, if you can see the spring on my car-it is pretty flat and this definitely improves handling.  It is not quite zero arch but it is a lot flatter than the springs that were on the car.

My car was a 318 car that someone had stuffed a 440 in, but, had not changed anything on it...springs, torsion bars, nothing.  Oh, did have the obligatory set of air shocks on the back.

I had already picked up a set of upper tubular control arms so I bought rear springs, rear and front sway bars, the RCD-Bilstein shocks, bushings, shackles, etc.  I bought PST 1.03" bars and rebuilt all the suspension then when I pulled the engine to fix all the frame rust, I added the FFII rebuilt steering box.

How much better is a subjective question.  I would say, the harder you drive the car to the limits, the better it gets.  If the car is just a driver and you are not autocrossing, racing, etc., then you will probably be quite happy with the improvements given by your current parts.

I have not yet added frame connectors to mine, but, I would definitely go that direction before replacing any of the parts you have already bought.

I have been using Bilstein shocks for years and consider them a really good bang for the buck even costing more than the KYB's and the IAS.  I have only had one set of the IAS and thought they were pretty good, but, they did not have the life of the Bilsteins or the ride control, but, they were good compared to the usual replacements.

Sounds to me as if your current stuff is a good start and I would spend my money on connectors, or whatever else you need to begin with.   You can always upgrade later if money is burning a hole in your pocket

[Road_Runner]

Sounds to me as if your current stuff is a good start and I would spend my money on connectors, or whatever else you need to begin with.   You can always upgrade later if money is burning a hole in your pocket

Thanks Steve, that's probably good advice.  I'm a set of rear springs & bushings from having what I need to install what I have.  I also plan to send off my steering box to firm feel for either a level II or III mod.  How happy are you with your level II, is it firm enough?  Like you said the Barracuda is going to be an around town & cruising car but a little spririted back road driving is also definitely in the plan. 

Later, Jim

[Strawdawg]

I would have gone with the III if I had known that the II is no stiffer that it is, but, I am going to shim the valve in the power steering pump and reduce the pressure so it no big deal.  As it is, it is light years ahead of where I started.

If you look at the pics of the front frame rails, you will see that anything I did to the car was useless until I fixed the frame  http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/Challengerrebuild.htm