Author Topic: Handling, ideal weight balance, Dana 60  (Read 3844 times)

Offline Ornamental

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Handling, ideal weight balance, Dana 60
« on: December 04, 2011 - 09:20:13 AM »
Just wondering, considering that a 50/50 weight balance is desireable for handling, but so is low unsprung weight, would a change from 8 3/4 to a 30# heavier Dana 60 overall benefit handling when attempting to come as close as possible to 50/50 in a Challenger?


Today, I have a Alterktion kit up front, a RMS four link rear for the 8 3/4.
I will put the battery in the trunk, and are considering a fibreglass hood.
Engine is a 340, will either stay small block or go 3G Hemi.


(Mods, even though the question involves a Dana 60, the question is handling related, so I hope this is the right subforum)
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Offline HP2

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Re: Handling, ideal weight balance, Dana 60
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2011 - 11:45:04 AM »
Adding weight tyically slows a car down, but there are often times when the trade off in durability or safety overrides the need for reduced weight.

So, adding weight to acheive balance will make a car that handles well and is more predicatable, but will also be slower than a comparably balanced, lighter car. However, unless you compete in an arena where absolute reduction in time is necessary to winning, the effort is likely to go unnoticed, particularly when you look at only 30#. You can easily offset that weight by using a lighter weight battery or fiberglass deck lid.

The 8.75 is a pretty stout rear end and will stand up to a fair amount of abuse. Unless you are building a rear from scratch or are doing drag launches on slicks at a prepared track on a regular basis, the 8.75 will probably stand up to most the street abuse you throw at it, particularly if you are using it in a road course or autocross environment.

As far as the difference goes, the rule of thumb in drag racing is every 100# lost will translate into a .1 faster e.t. I can't really comment on how much faster a lap time that would translate to in an autocross because of the wide variables in layout and skill that come to play. If you were dialed in to the Nth degree, it may require a hair more spring rate or heavier shock dampning to control the motion, and it would react marginally slower, but that change would be almost inperceptible. Suffice it to say it will be minimal. Lets try this, if you can notice the change in handling between a full tank of gas compared to a half tank of gas, then you will feel the difference the Dana will make.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2011 - 12:03:32 PM by HP2 »

Offline jvike

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Re: Handling, ideal weight balance, Dana 60
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2011 - 11:57:22 AM »
Hi Per-Arne. I have a similar setup to you. 340, XV front and rear, 8-3/4, fiberglass hood and trunk mounted battery (20 KG Optima Yellowtop). With 3/4 of fuel I had it cornerweight this summer and it is 3461 lbs with a ratio of 54.7-45.3% Front to rear. If I got me some aluminium heads it would be even closer. But these mesurements was made without me in the car.  I don't know the weight of the AlterKtion but the XV is all aluminium so it probably has a weight advantage to the AlterKtion. But then again it carries all the chassis stiffening bits that's all steel, so it is probably a fair comparison anyway.
As for the Dana 60 I don't know if it would be the desiered rear for handling, it is probably more biased toward getting power in the ground and drag racing?
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Offline Ornamental

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Re: Handling, ideal weight balance, Dana 60
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2011 - 06:25:24 PM »
So, adding weight to acheive balance will make a car that handles well and is more predicatable, but will also be slower than a comparably balanced, lighter car...
...Lets try this, if you can notice the change in handling between a full tank of gas compared to a half tank of gas, then you will feel the difference the Dana will make.
Thank you for the reply HP2, was hoping to get some input from you.  :thumbsup:

To me, the more predictable handling is worth the price of a tiny bit slower acceleration.

The basis of my question was, if the added unsprung weight somehow offsets the balance gain in the overall scheme of things
I take it that the 30# more of unsprung weight in this specific example isn't that much of an issue then, if the sprung weight of half a tank gas is comparable to it.

The use is street only, so it's not like it's about split hairs of differences needed in my favor, just about silly grins on my face. I've started to enjoy my Chally a lot more after I got the chassis stiffening kit and the Alterktion and four link in it, since I feel more in control and therefore will go faster in curves now (Things like leaving a Skoda Octavia vRS at some twisty bits is what makes me smile).


I don't know the weight of the AlterKtion but the XV is all aluminium so it probably has a weight advantage to the AlterKtion. But then again it carries all the chassis stiffening bits that's all steel, so it is probably a fair comparison anyway.
As for the Dana 60 I don't know if it would be the desiered rear for handling, it is probably more biased toward getting power in the ground and drag racing?


Hi Joakim!  I got the XV stiffening kit too, so the comparison goes skewed again. I got a aluminium* radiator though, but I guess you got one too, otherwise I'll be somewhat surprised.
I always thought of the Dana 60 only being useful for powerful torque'y cars with manual trans, or drag racing. But I just got thinking about weight distribution. Both the Dana and the 8 3/4 are live axles, as opposed to IRS**, so I wouldn't think the handling bit would be much less desireable. From a moving bit point of view, it's just a slightly heavier similar part with the same basic geometry. It's just the added unsprung weight I was concerned about, but if it's like HP2 says above, then it's not much to be concerned about


Beside, apart from taking more abuse, there's one highly subjective advantage the Dana 60 has over the 8 3/4: It looks way cooler! Silly things like that matters too, otherwise I'd just put my own rear end in a modern sports car seat :bigsmile:


*=I work with many Brits, and only two Americans, so my English get more, well, English. :icon16:
And working with some Poles means I sometimes say KORVA rather than the f-word.
 

**= No, I don't consider a IRS at all.
Panther Pink '72 Challenger Rallye.
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-There are two kinds of pedestrians: The quick and the dead.

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Offline 72bluNblu

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Re: Handling, ideal weight balance, Dana 60
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2011 - 07:37:48 PM »
If you're just going to be using it on the street, I don't think it'd be worth changing to the Dana 60. The change in the front/rear bias will be pretty minimal, and knowing how to handle your car is more important than a perfect 50/50 weight balance.

Also, its a lot easier to change gearing with an 8 3/4. For racing, this is important since it allows you to tailor your gear ratio's to the specific track you're at. Gear changes in the Dana 60 aren't nearly as quick and easy.

How is the 340 set up? I'd be more inclined to switch to an aluminum intake, heads, etc to lighten the front, rather than making the rear heavier.

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Handling, ideal weight balance, Dana 60
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2011 - 09:01:40 PM »
the extra weight of the Dana on the tires does help traction  :2thumbs:

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Offline HP2

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Re: Handling, ideal weight balance, Dana 60
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2011 - 09:45:17 PM »
The basis of my question was, if the added unsprung weight somehow offsets the balance gain in the overall scheme of things
I take it that the 30# more of unsprung weight in this specific example isn't that much of an issue then, if the sprung weight of half a tank gas is comparable to it.


*=I work with many Brits, and only two Americans, so my English get more, well, English. :icon16:
And working with some Poles means I sometimes say KORVA rather than the f-word.
 



Well, gasoline weighs approximately 6 pounds per gallon. If an E body tank is approximately 16 gallons, then half a tank of gas is just under 50 pounds of weight.

FWIW, your english is very good. Perhaps I'll try using Korva more instead of the F word myself!  :2thumbs:

Offline go-fish

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Re: Handling, ideal weight balance, Dana 60
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2011 - 12:58:22 AM »
If you are going to buy a Dana 60 from someone who sets them up in any configuration you want this would be a good time to consider a different length axle to suit a desired wheel offset. Also, you can take advantage of using the 'big Ford' housing ends for a better bearings than the Mopar 'green' bearings.
Strange would have done all of this on my order but I neglected to plan for the future and now I am narrowing my new S-60. If you are building it yourself you may also want to consider a b-body housing.

Offline Ornamental

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Re: Handling, ideal weight balance, Dana 60
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2011 - 08:20:13 AM »
If you're just going to be using it on the street, I don't think it'd be worth changing to the Dana 60. The change in the front/rear bias will be pretty minimal, and knowing how to handle your car is more important than a perfect 50/50 weight balance.

Also, its a lot easier to change gearing with an 8 3/4. For racing, this is important since it allows you to tailor your gear ratio's to the specific track you're at. Gear changes in the Dana 60 aren't nearly as quick and easy.

How is the 340 set up? I'd be more inclined to switch to an aluminum intake, heads, etc to lighten the front, rather than making the rear heavier.
Agreed on knowing how to handle it is more important, ultimately it's about the nut behind the steering wheel. However, I think better handling can be had than what I have now, so why not try to achieve it?

Gear changes isn't a concern. I pick a gear, and I stick with it. No serious track or strip use for the Chally. Fun on the street is everything (With some allowance to highway use, i.e. not too low gears). Of course while pretending very hard to be a responsible adult.

The 340 got a aluminium intake, won't do much about the engine until I decide whether to go for SB or 3G Hemi.
A big factor is what my friend and closest e-body owner widing'cuda does enginewise, it's important to top him. He's been top dog too long now.  :poopoke:
He's strongly considering a new engine now. Maybe I'll let him have a year to enjoy it before I go  :burnout: on him. This is of course only because I'm a kind person, nothing to do with me needing more time to save money for upgrades. No Sir, not at all. *Cough*


the extra weight of the Dana on the tires does help traction  :2thumbs:
Burnouts are cool, but traction is the action. :2thumbs:




Well, gasoline weighs approximately 6 pounds per gallon. If an E body tank is approximately 16 gallons, then half a tank of gas is just under 50 pounds of weight.

I do understand that the weights themselves are comparable, the matter was of the position of the weight.
I was only wondering about any noteworthy handling downside to have the added weight under the springs, meaning more mass for the springs to handle, skewing the sprung to unsprung weight ratio. 
I.e. being more unsprung weight to work against the same sprung weight.

But now I get the impression that handlingwise it doesn't matter whether the few extra pounds in this specific example are on the sprung weight or the unsprung weight. I guess that as long as the road surface isn't full of bumpy bits, it should be fine. If the road is full of potholes, I won't be doing any spirited driving anyway. So I think the preparedness for future shenanigans, better traction, tiny bit better balancing, and last but not least cooler look might be worth the effort later since the damping cost isn't very high. Besides, I don't smoke, hardly ever drink, no wife or children, so I have to spend money on something.   ;)


If you are going to buy a Dana 60 from someone who sets them up in any configuration you want this would be a good time to consider a different length axle to suit a desired wheel offset. Also, you can take advantage of using the 'big Ford' housing ends for a better bearings than the Mopar 'green' bearings.
Strange would have done all of this on my order but I neglected to plan for the future and now I am narrowing my new S-60. If you are building it yourself you may also want to consider a b-body housing.
That's good advice. I'll certainly have that in mind if I go for a Dana 60.



With all that said, I'm only exploring an idea now. The priority is to sort out some rust and other body issues next year.
Panther Pink '72 Challenger Rallye.
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-There are two kinds of pedestrians: The quick and the dead.

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Offline dodj

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Re: Handling, ideal weight balance, Dana 60
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2011 - 10:02:40 AM »
 
Just wondering, considering that a 50/50 weight balance is desirable for handling, but so is low unsprung weight, would a change from 8 3/4 to a 30# heavier Dana 60 overall benefit handling when attempting to come as close as possible to 50/50 in a Challenger?

Adding unsprung weight in the form of a Dana may seem to be on the right side of the equation for weight split, but will be detrimental to getting the best handling Challenger in Norway. 15 kilograms of gas will not hurt your handling as much as 15 kilograms of rear axle. Not saying it's a night and day difference, but if you want to show widing how to really take a corner, you will probably need to make a lot of small incremental gains to achieve a top notch handling car. Little bit here, a little there...

There's a reason F1 wheels are so light weight.
Scott
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Offline johns cuda shop

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Re: Handling, ideal weight balance, Dana 60
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2011 - 12:31:48 PM »
It takes less Horsepower to turn a Dana then a 8 3/4 , Just food for thought.
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Offline dodj

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Re: Handling, ideal weight balance, Dana 60
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2011 - 12:33:59 PM »
It takes less Horsepower to turn a Dana then a 8 3/4 , Just food for thought.
I thought it was the other way around?  :clueless:
Scott
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Offline Cuda54

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Re: Handling, ideal weight balance, Dana 60
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2011 - 02:13:50 PM »
John's Cuda Shop How much was that setup and how much horse power will it hold up to?

Offline HP2

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Re: Handling, ideal weight balance, Dana 60
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2011 - 04:10:07 PM »

Adding unsprung weight in the form of a Dana may seem to be on the right side of the equation for weight split, but will be detrimental to getting the best handling Challenger in Norway. 15 kilograms of gas will not hurt your handling as much as 15 kilograms of rear axle. Not saying it's a night and day difference, but if you want to show widing how to really take a corner, you will probably need to make a lot of small incremental gains to achieve a top notch handling car. Little bit here, a little there...

There's a reason F1 wheels are so light weight.

True, but we also have unsprung weight and unsprung rotational weight. A dana is adding mostly unsprung weight, which is not good. It does have some change on rotational weight, I forget which rear actually has less drag, but it is certainly less weight than a wheel/tire rotational impact, which is REALLY not good. Heavier unsprung weights typically will make the suspension react slower in addition to making the car drag around more weight. Unsprung rotational weight will not only make the suspension react slower, but will also slow down accelleration and braking, or it results in an even bigger impact than simple unsprung weight.

I've seen numerous formulas that say unsprung weight additions are the equal of adding 3, 5, or even 10 pounds of sprung mass. The truth is it all depends. On a wheel, I'd tend to think more towards the high side since it is rotationally unsprung. For a rear housing I'd tend to think it is more towards the low side.