Author Topic: Anyone in here using composite leaf springs?  (Read 23990 times)

Offline brads70

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Re: Anyone in here using composite leaf springs?
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2012 - 09:54:53 PM »
Some people on the Moparts forum said they had issues with cracking.  If you ever planned on inspecting your springs for cracking, the spray coating would make it impossible.   :2cents:

True, good point. Maybe the ruberized undercoating would be a better choice?  I've never heard of a Hyperco spring breaking though? It was the flex a form that had the issues in the Moparts post?
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0




Offline 'Cuda Hunter

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Re: Anyone in here using composite leaf springs?
« Reply #16 on: February 29, 2012 - 10:11:33 AM »
Do you really think that the undercoating would keep the outside of the spring together enough that you would not see the crack?

I would think the crack would still show up.
"All riches begin as a state of mind and you have complete control of your mind"  -- B. Lee

Offline PlumCraZRT

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Re: Anyone in here using composite leaf springs?
« Reply #17 on: February 29, 2012 - 01:14:17 PM »
Do you really think that the undercoating would keep the outside of the spring together enough that you would not see the crack?

I would think the crack would still show up.

I'm not entirely sure I understand the question, but I'm saying the crack would still exist but the undercoating would cover it to the point where you wouldn't be able to see it (until it fails catastrophically)
mmmmm.... Mopar.... *drool*

Offline 'Cuda Hunter

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Re: Anyone in here using composite leaf springs?
« Reply #18 on: February 29, 2012 - 03:21:03 PM »
You got the question.  I would personally think that the crack would still show up. 
But, I am unfamiliar with the coatings. Maybe they do have enough flex that they would not show a crack.
However, I have yet to read anything about catastrophic failure.  Just cracking and splintering.
"All riches begin as a state of mind and you have complete control of your mind"  -- B. Lee

Offline HP2

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Re: Anyone in here using composite leaf springs?
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2012 - 11:01:56 AM »
Fiberglass leafs are similar to torsion bars in that seemingly small and insignificant chips can cause stress risers that lead to failures. If you avoid the chips that create the failure point, then you should not need to have visibility to the hairline fractures that would evolve form the chip. However, if by chance they do begin to split, I would think, based on pictures I have seen, that it would tear a rubberized coating far enough to be visible. Perhaps the compromise here would be to use this coating on the bottom and outboard side of the spring to provide rock chip protection, but leave the top and inboard side exposed to view for splintering.

Typically, most composite leafs are used in competition applications where they receive regular inspections. Even with this, most manufacturers suggest using something to protect the springs, usually suggesting duct tape.

The flip side is that GM has used composite leafs in Corvettes for decades. However, their transverse loction high up in the chassis provides and measure of protection compared to the mopar style, low and outboard in the debris path kicked up from the front tires. I have heard that GM Astro vans also used composite springs and they have experienced failures. I have no first hand info on that and no idea of any failures were because of the spring material or damage. FWIW, even if used extensively during the warm summer months, most of our E bodies won't see near the mileage in ten years that some one was heaping on a utility van in a single year.

Offline brads70

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Re: Anyone in here using composite leaf springs?
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2012 - 11:09:06 AM »
I have searched on the net and found a few failures/damage on the Chevy Astro van springs but it's ( so far) been due to collisions or overloading the van beyond the recomended capacity. I've also seen steel leaf springs break under those conditions too.
I'll  " walk on the wild side"  and get a pair when my budget allows. :cooldancing: ..... I'm a bit of a weight freak when it's practical. :2thumbs:
Hey I figure I gotta cut some weight outta the car as my " grocery tumour" doesn't seem to be getting any smaller? :eek7: :roflsmiley:
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Anyone in here using composite leaf springs?
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2012 - 11:21:42 PM »
We used Astro vans for the locksmith business , we had about 5 vans , they were loaded but not overloaded , they saw a lot of miles year round , I replaced the springs in at least 3 vans , they would start to separate & sag , a quick visual inspection & the spring was failing , splintering & separating , we swapped in Steel springs .
When we finally replaced my van I ordered a Dodge B150 short wheel base with a v6 magnum , it was twice the vehicle , better milage , more load capacity & the brakes lasted over 120,000 km where we had to replace brakes every 30,000 km on the Astro

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline ntstlgl1970

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Re: Anyone in here using composite leaf springs?
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2012 - 08:03:42 PM »
Fiberglass leafs are similar to torsion bars in that seemingly small and insignificant chips can cause stress risers that lead to failures. If you avoid the chips that create the failure point, then you should not need to have visibility to the hairline fractures that would evolve form the chip. However, if by chance they do begin to split, I would think, based on pictures I have seen, that it would tear a rubberized coating far enough to be visible. Perhaps the compromise here would be to use this coating on the bottom and outboard side of the spring to provide rock chip protection, but leave the top and inboard side exposed to view for splintering.

Typically, most composite leafs are used in competition applications where they receive regular inspections. Even with this, most manufacturers suggest using something to protect the springs, usually suggesting duct tape.

The flip side is that GM has used composite leafs in Corvettes for decades. However, their transverse loction high up in the chassis provides and measure of protection compared to the mopar style, low and outboard in the debris path kicked up from the front tires. I have heard that GM Astro vans also used composite springs and they have experienced failures. I have no first hand info on that and no idea of any failures were because of the spring material or damage. FWIW, even if used extensively during the warm summer months, most of our E bodies won't see near the mileage in ten years that some one was heaping on a utility van in a single year.

So, Based on a typical big block e body, would you recommend a 175lb spring without a sway bar and a 150lb rate with a sway bar? or would you recommend going up to a 200 without/175 with?. I had an early mustang before that I think I ran with a 200lb rate springs in the back without a rear bar and it was a little too stiff, maybe with the added weight of the e body a 200 would be in the ball park? Considering I want to get rid of my S/S springs anyway, this seems like a good way to go along with a set of good shocks to control these things...
70 Cuda, 7.0L Gen-III Hemi, Viper T56 w/9310 gearset, 3.91's, Megasquirt MS3x v3.57, Innovate wideband, Firm Feel upper arms, torsion bars, springs and strut rods, QA1 DA shocks. I did everything on this car except the fancy paint stuff and I drive it...and I can't seem to stop messing with it....

Offline brads70

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Re: Anyone in here using composite leaf springs?
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2012 - 08:49:28 PM »
So, Based on a typical big block e body, would you recommend a 175lb spring without a sway bar and a 150lb rate with a sway bar? or would you recommend going up to a 200 without/175 with?. I had an early mustang before that I think I ran with a 200lb rate springs in the back without a rear bar and it was a little too stiff, maybe with the added weight of the e body a 200 would be in the ball park? Considering I want to get rid of my S/S springs anyway, this seems like a good way to go along with a set of good shocks to control these things...

I'm guessing 175LB because Hotchkis uses a 160LB in there kit?  But I'm no expert? :dunno:  I have both front and rear Hotchis bars now.
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline ntstlgl1970

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Re: Anyone in here using composite leaf springs?
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2012 - 10:10:53 PM »
True, good point. Maybe the ruberized undercoating would be a better choice?  I've never heard of a Hyperco spring breaking though? It was the flex a form that had the issues in the Moparts post?
I like the heat shrink tubing idea, it's pretty durable especially if you were to get the type with sealant in it, like what you can get for battery cables etc.
70 Cuda, 7.0L Gen-III Hemi, Viper T56 w/9310 gearset, 3.91's, Megasquirt MS3x v3.57, Innovate wideband, Firm Feel upper arms, torsion bars, springs and strut rods, QA1 DA shocks. I did everything on this car except the fancy paint stuff and I drive it...and I can't seem to stop messing with it....

Offline HP2

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Re: Anyone in here using composite leaf springs?
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2012 - 11:59:49 AM »
I'm guessing 175LB because Hotchkis uses a 160LB in there kit?  But I'm no expert? :dunno:  I have both front and rear Hotchis bars now.

That should get you in the ball park an dyou can tune up or won with the adjustable rear bar.

Offline ntstlgl1970

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Re: Anyone in here using composite leaf springs?
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2012 - 08:33:58 PM »
That should get you in the ball park an dyou can tune up or won with the adjustable rear bar.
with a 175lb rear spring,  what torsion bar would be good if I'm using a 1.125 sway bar up front?
70 Cuda, 7.0L Gen-III Hemi, Viper T56 w/9310 gearset, 3.91's, Megasquirt MS3x v3.57, Innovate wideband, Firm Feel upper arms, torsion bars, springs and strut rods, QA1 DA shocks. I did everything on this car except the fancy paint stuff and I drive it...and I can't seem to stop messing with it....

Offline HP2

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Re: Anyone in here using composite leaf springs?
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2012 - 09:40:13 AM »
That really depends on your weight distribution and if your using a rear s-bar. 1" to 1.18" could be compatible.

Offline 'Cuda Hunter

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Re: Anyone in here using composite leaf springs?
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2012 - 11:23:32 AM »
I like the heat shrink tubing idea, it's pretty durable especially if you were to get the type with sealant in it, like what you can get for battery cables etc.

Where do you find this product?
"All riches begin as a state of mind and you have complete control of your mind"  -- B. Lee

Offline ntstlgl1970

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Re: Anyone in here using composite leaf springs?
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2012 - 12:25:19 PM »
Where do you find this product?
I found some on amazon and they should have it at digikey
70 Cuda, 7.0L Gen-III Hemi, Viper T56 w/9310 gearset, 3.91's, Megasquirt MS3x v3.57, Innovate wideband, Firm Feel upper arms, torsion bars, springs and strut rods, QA1 DA shocks. I did everything on this car except the fancy paint stuff and I drive it...and I can't seem to stop messing with it....