Built New Hemi or Built 440?

Author Topic: Built New Hemi or Built 440?  (Read 26480 times)

Offline TKat13

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2012 - 02:13:04 PM »
The biggest torsion bar readily available is a 1.12, which is barely adequate for a small block in autocross competition, so the big block will be at a disadvantage. If you change over to a coil over set up with a broad range of spring choices, then you can overcome this deficite.

When you say 'readily' available, do you mean given enough lead time that larger torsion bars are available? (lead time is not an issue, I have much to do to keep me busy) Is there an outfit that can make torsion bar specific spring rates like the coil springs? I don't fear the stiffness as I actually prefer it.

For a 440 with all aluminum parts that are available including radiator and fiberglass hood what spring rate would I be looking for? 1.2 or ? Sounds like you would recommend higher than 1.12 but by how much. Also, I would need to match the shock valving to the spring rate, do you have a preferred vendor for this? (that know what they are doing) My point is I have done this with my '04 Mach1, put 750lb (not coil-overs) spring rate coils on the front and had some Bilstien HD Struts re-valved to handle that rate properly. I used Maximum Motorsports, but they specialize in Mustangs only.

I will search more and see if I find anything...

At this point, I am leaning more to the old school 440/500/512 side of things but with a twist. I like the idea of fuel injection.

BTW, Brads70 and HP2, I have read many, many suspension post from you guys, huge thanks for your write-ups and replies! So much so, that I got comfortable with the stock geometry and looking to see how much of it I can keep intact.
 
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Offline brads70

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2012 - 02:20:37 PM »
I to at some point will switch over to port injected EFI. If I had the funds ( which I don't) I'd have an aluminum block for my 451" too! But they are around 5K  ...outta my league  :walkaway:
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

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Offline HP2

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2012 - 05:59:03 PM »
Readily as in call up a vendor and buy them, yes that's exactly what I mean. Unfortuantly there is no one making anything any bigger than the 1.12 maybe 1.18 any more. Mopar used to make a 1.22, which is the biggest you can stuff in to the factory sockets, but they were discontinued many years ago. They still pop up now and again on web boards and auction sites, but not often. The only place I'm positive is making t-bars is Firm Feel. Certainly someone else is making them as well since there are other retailers, but I don't know their source and they also are limiting themselves to the 1.12 to 1.18 range.

Looking at t-bars rates, they are a direct correlation to the wheel rate, so a 200# torsion bar is 200# wheel rate. By comparison, your 750# Mach 1 springs may have only put 400# of force into the wheel based on the geometric stack up. As far as what rate is best, that kind of depends. The serious autocross guys all use 1.22 bars. However, XV's research showed that 1.12 for small block and 1.18 for big blocks were the best all around combination for stepped up performance, handling, and ride. If you do open track days, the 1.12 will get the job done. If your autocrossing, you will be leaving something on the table, by comparison.

A few vendors you want to familiarize yourself with in regards to suspension parts; Firm Feel, XV Motorsports, and Hotchkis. All offer component variations on the stock mopar design. Firm Feel and Hotchkis use and endorse Bilstein shocks, XV uses custom valved Afcos. All have slightly different approaches on their improvements, but all offer them as packages that will really wake up how your car feels. All have web sites you can browse.

Offline thedodgeboys

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2012 - 08:50:12 PM »
Well here`s another curve ball, what about a Gen 3 426 or 440 Hemi, they put out 600 plus horsepower(natually aspirated) and It`s a small block; the physicaL size of the engine has no bearing on the horsepower it produces. Even a stroked 440(eg. 505, 512 etc.) has a difficult time achieving those kind of numbers.

The new 426 gen 3 Hemi's have an aluminum block so that makes them 100 pounds lighter than the 6.1. I think the 600 HP motors are 12 to 15 K with ECM and harness.

whats a new built 505 from say Indy run 10-15k ??? plus an EFI setup.   The advantage to the big blocks come from if you already own one and can build it yourself, all things being equal the gen 3 wins.

but... there is no replacement for displacement...

INHO build what you want and enjoy it both motors are cool :bigsmile:
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Offline johns cuda shop

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #19 on: February 29, 2012 - 07:16:56 AM »
The shipping weight on a gen 3 426 aluminum block hemi is 398 lbs , 100 lighter than a small block.
71 Cuda Gen III Aluminum 426 Hemi T56 6 speed 4.10 8.75 Modified & Lowered RMS coilover suspension Wilwood discs

Offline brads70

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #20 on: February 29, 2012 - 08:50:34 AM »
The shipping weight on a gen 3 426 aluminum block hemi is 398 lbs , 100 lighter than a small block.

That's pretty cool! :2thumbs:
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline Cooter

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #21 on: February 29, 2012 - 12:21:56 PM »
According to Indy's Site pricing as of today, I can buy a 500" Wedge engine using MY OWN 440 BLOCK,  680 HP@6700 RPM and 620 Ft. Lbs of torque@5000 RPM...
Price= $12,175.00
$16,175.00 full on Indy stuff.


New Hemi 6.1...Nearest competitor in power as far as HP goes looks like 640 HP@7500 RPM and 500 Ft. Lbs @5800.....Price= $18,500.00 plus another $3900.00 for the EFi stuff....



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Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #22 on: February 29, 2012 - 05:33:07 PM »
I thought PST still had 1.22 Torsion bars available ? I installed a set in a GTX & the only thing flexing was the tire sidewalls , we had the adjusters backed all the way off & it still was sitting way too high , it rode like a walking beam dump truck .

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Offline grimmey71

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #23 on: February 29, 2012 - 05:48:53 PM »
According to Indy's Site pricing as of today, I can buy a 500" Wedge engine using MY OWN 440 BLOCK,  680 HP@6700 RPM and 620 Ft. Lbs of torque@5000 RPM...
Price= $12,175.00
$16,175.00 full on Indy stuff.


New Hemi 6.1...Nearest competitor in power as far as HP goes looks like 640 HP@7500 RPM and 500 Ft. Lbs @5800.....Price= $18,500.00 plus another $3900.00 for the EFi stuff....

Performance werks racing has great prices on gen3 hemis   Try quoted me an all aluminum 426 for a little over $12,000 with the hp numbers

Offline ragtopdodge

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #24 on: February 29, 2012 - 06:39:40 PM »
Not a bad price on this all al. gen III, but I still think you can get a stroker 440 for less money and >540HP:

http://www.moparperformanceonline.com/p-1255-mopar-426-hemi-540-horsepower.aspx
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Offline thedodgeboys

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2012 - 08:35:45 PM »
According to Indy's Site pricing as of today, I can buy a 500" Wedge engine using MY OWN 440 BLOCK,  680 HP@6700 RPM and 620 Ft. Lbs of torque@5000 RPM...
Price= $12,175.00
$16,175.00 full on Indy stuff.


New Hemi 6.1...Nearest competitor in power as far as HP goes looks like 640 HP@7500 RPM and 500 Ft. Lbs @5800.....Price= $18,500.00 plus another $3900.00 for the EFi stuff....

I think you a little high on the price of the hemi depending on the render I guess I think the mopar one is 18 and includes the ecm and harness. but for a few dollers more why not go all out for the  800 horsepower V-10 Competition Series engine, part number P5155872 that is designed specifically for drag racing. Hand assembled to exacting 
standards by race engine builders, the Competition Series V-10 features an aluminum block with aluminum cylinder heads. Designed for the rigors of drag racing and pulling 695 lb.-ft. of torque with an operating range of up to 7,000 rpm, these race-calibrated engines include a forged-steel crankshaft with forged-steel connecting rods and forged-aluminum pistons with a compression ratio of 12.5:1. All rotating components have been balanced for maximum performance at the track.
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Offline Cooter

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2012 - 07:52:12 AM »
Some folks will never be convinced that the cheaper way to power is the way to go...Look at EBay. People will overspend in order to satisfy some ego trip. Same with the newer HEMI. It's their "Thing" and these numbers prove it. Even though it costs more, makes LESS torque, there will be those who buy it simply because they want to be on that "What's the latest trend" bandwagon and that's ok for them. Not even trying to convince anybody if that's what they want to do, but for the majority of us here with limited funds, we need to see real world figures and the newer HEMI is COSTLY at best. These numbers came directly from Indy's site which what was asked to compare. All things being equal, the newer HEMI and the wedge when talking cost to make power, no contest. The wedge (440) wins hands down. GenIII HEMI can't produce the torque the wedge can normally aspirated without a blower. But, I degress, the old 440 isn't as "Trick" as the new HEMI.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012 - 07:56:29 AM by Cooter »
1958 plymouth Belvedere 2dr hd top "Christine" [OO)====V====(OO]
1969 dodge Charger "General Lee"         [___|______I______|___]                        
1968 Dodge Dart 2dr sedan 505" Stroker    (O]=0==========0=[O)                
1970 Challenger R/T Clone "Kowalski Special"   (OO) [___________] (OO)

Offline Modern Muscle

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2012 - 08:43:10 AM »
Guys you can forge and stroke a 6.1 for alot less then those crate motors from Mopar.

Offline HP2

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2012 - 09:45:22 AM »
I thought PST still had 1.22 Torsion bars available ? I installed a set in a GTX & the only thing flexing was the tire sidewalls , we had the adjusters backed all the way off & it still was sitting way too high , it rode like a walking beam dump truck .

Not too sure if they have 1.22 bars, to be honest. I know for a lot of years their advertisements only said heavy duty. Lately they have been plugging their 1.03 bars as 13% better than competitors 1.00 bars. I don't know what other sizes they may offer. I'm sure Firm Feel isn't hte only company making these, but there probably aren't a whole lot more that are.

You are right about the adjusters being backed way out.  The trick to installing them runs counter to normal installation procedure. With a 1.22 bar you actually slide it in to the socket with the lower control arm close to level, not with it at full droop. You don't need any preload with a bar that big.

Once upon a time I was chatting with some mopar guys who were proposing a hex socket adapter that would allow C body guys to use the larger B body bars. This was back before anyone was making stepped up rates for C bodies. The natural progression of that idea meant that the same adapter in an A, B, or E body may have allowed us to use even larger diameter truck torsion bars from other makes, IE Toyota, GM, etc. Unfortuantly the price of entry got too be too high, C body bars became more widely available, and the idea died before anything was ever made.

Offline TKat13

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Re: Built New Hemi or Built 440?
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2012 - 08:43:40 PM »
Thanks for all the inputs, it really helps.

Since I have a 440, 69 year, HP based on what my bro tells me but to me it is just a block. I am looking at some of the rotating assemblies at 440 source . However, I really want fuel injection. Aside from all this, just 'deciding' allows me to move on to suspension selection. I want to stick with the stock design, just upgrade everything.

Looking at:
Lower control arms, beefed up with weld on plates.
Upper tubulars
Upgrade the strut bars ( mine are bent)
All rubber changed to poly
1.18 torsion bars or bigger if I can find them.
Hallow sway bar
Bilstein matched valves shocks

Still researching:
Brakes, I am interested in somehow fitting 13" rotors with brake calipers from an '04 Cobra/Mach1. The work very well and a great selection of pads. Cheap too!
Steering, I hate the steering box on mopars, heavy beasts! Some kind of power rack system is a must.

Anyway, this is my current state of insanity! Thanks again!
1974 'Cuda
2005 SRT-10 Ram
2006 Buell Firebolt XB12R (Murdered by person texting & driving)
2004 Mach 1