Conflict of Interest!

[ECS]

I wanted to hear responses from the members on this forum and get your thoughts on a scenario that has started to take place with the OE program at the Columbus Nationals.  Starting in 2011, they are now allowing the participants to sponsor the OE program that they are competing in!  Does anyone else feel that when $5000 is collected under the guise of "sponsorship" that it is an unethical conflict of interest?  Most might look at this as a "payoff".  Since this factual information was made public and published in the 2011 Nationals program, it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who pays attention.  What is the consensus here?   

[ted]

IF THE TROphy is worth 5000?

[go-fish]

Its not the "trophy" but the venue that has been abated.  They now allow base/clear paint jobs to receive the same points as a correct single stage Factory paint job.  Reproduction parts are no longer given deductions as they were prior to 2011.  Restored parts that look NOTHING like original Factory pieces are overlooked and the participants are allowed to  "sponsor" the competition in which they are being judged.  I only wish I could have taken advantage of this "new" OE criteria!  I could have cut my efforts in half and brought cars that were a mere shadow of the "Assembly Line" vehicles that we brought for my entries.  The focus is no longer the reality of what an OE car represents but the deceit in which one can make others believe something that isn't factual. 

Are your parts all original?   Why....of course they are!  Hardly a single Repo part....Nada!

My problem with the OE division is that all the cars look like they need a nice set of wheels and proper stance. Looking at those scary 4 wheel drum cars gives me nightmares too.

[Cuda Cody]

I have no issues with repop parts and base coat / clear coat cars, however for OE contests there needs to be a consistence standard that is above and beyond the average car restoration.

Many of the top OE cars will never be drivers as they are built for the show circuit and judging.  There's LOTS of cars (mopar and others) that are built strictly for show and judging.  I LOVE that!   I really enjoy seeing and reading about guys like you that do build these cars to that level.  I Respect the work and dedication it takes to get to that level and please keep up the great work.

BTW... What's better, the NCAA tournament or the NIT tournament, Sprint Cup or Nationwide, College Baseball or MLB?  The best of the best will always want the challenger and the higher standards.  The same will hold true for judged cars, the shows that have the higher standards will draw the better cars and if shows lower their standards they will draw weaker cars.  People will devalue the lessor standard judged cars and those cars will not be given the credit that cars that have been done like the ones ECS has done.   Don't worry that someones restored car will have the same value or prestige your cars do.  YOU have set the new standard for OE restored mopar and only YOU can let people take that from you. 

[torredcuda]

If they allow base/clear paint and repro partswith no points deduction than it no longer has any credibilty as "OE" judging.Allowing particiapants to sponsor the category they compete in is never a good idea.

[RamSRT]

If they allow base/clear paint and repro partswith no points deduction than it no longer has any credibilty as "OE" judging.Allowing particiapants to sponsor the category they compete in is never a good idea.

Agreed!!   

Once you deviate from the way the vehicle was originally built by the manufacturer how can you still call it an OE class. Do you do it like other classes?  Have an OE Stock and OE Modified  

[ChallengerHK]

I've never been involved with car shows, mostly because my car has never been in good enough shape to enter. I do have experience with model car competitions, as well as experience in competitive strategy gaming. There's rampant conflict of interest and favoritism in both. In fact, I jumped out of both because of it, and it's also one reason (out of many) that I really have little interest in showing my car competitively. So, from that standpoint, it doesn't surprise me, and I don't care.

From that standpoint that I have friends here who would like to be able to show their cars, and would like a fair shake, it still doesn't surprise me, but I do care.

[JH27N0B]

The sponsorship issue of allowing participants to be sponsors of the OE judging class is absolutely ridiculous.  Being a lifelong resident of Cook "crook" county Illinois where conflict of interest is the way of life in government and with just about all the area politicians including one who happens to be the current POTUS, these types of activities make my blood pressure go through the roof and I hate to see it now happening in our hobby.  Though is it really something new?  For example Finer Details is a major sponsor of MCACN, I've known Ken for years and he's a friend, but still, I had to scratch my head a little when a '68 hemi Charger his shop restored and he had displayed in his area got a perfect score of 1000 in judging at the 2010 show.  The car looked beautiful but still, is there such a thing as a perfect car?
If one was to ever be done, Dave would probably be the only one in the world who could pull it off, and I know that was the goal with the Valiant.  The car probably should have got perfect at the Nats but the judges seemed intent in finding some debatable nuances to deduct some points just for the sake of not having a car deemed perfect.
All in all though, it seems like in OE gold judging, the bar has been set impossibly high.  Original parts, especially the so called "lunchbox" parts are or are becoming non-existent at this point 40 plus years after the cars were built.  How can you hold this standard for judging at the point where it is impossible to get the parts necessary to restore a car to that standard?  The paint issue is not even debatable, they shouldn't allow something like base coat clear coat, but as far as the parts, when you are talking about needing 100s of parts which in many cases probably can't be found, at some point don't you need to allow repro parts done to the highest standards (such as the ones ECS makes available), or risk having the whole OE gold class just fade away into history?
How are the standards established for classics in the shows that feature them?  Surely no one is digging up original datecoded exhaust parts, tires and glass when they restore a 30's Packard or Duesenberg??!!

[ted]

so now the 5 cars in that glass can pay for the class, who cares

[70convertcuda]

After seeing some of what has been said here about the OE judging, I just wanted to add a couple of points.  I too have noticed a recent change in the way the OE program has been judging the cars.  At the Ohio Nationals last year they didn't even have a lift to roll the cars on so they could inspect the undersides of the vehicles.  They had a couple of old ramps that looked like something you would use to change your oil on.  The front wheels were on the ramps while the rear wheels sat on the ground.  You can't compare vehicles from different years when there is such a drastic difference in the way the cars are judged.  Like someone said in an earlier post, Dave has set the bar.  I thought his car was real close to a perfect score.  Is there really anything left to improve on at this point?  Even the Valiant's video presentation was top shelf in 2010.  If the judges are changing the program or playing games by giving trumped up or undeserving scores, it will not change the reality of what that Valiant represents.  In a subjective judging system it's a moving target so they can do what they want even if the end result is not factual or truthful.  Its too bad that there is not another judging program out there that has consistent judging standards.

Ken

[Cooter]

I wanted to hear responses from the members on this forum and get your thoughts on a scenario that has started to take place with the OE program at the Columbus Nationals.  Starting in 2011, they are now allowing the participants to sponsor the OE program that they are competing in!  Does anyone else feel that when $5000 is collected under the guise of "sponsorship" that it is an unethical conflict of interest?  Most might look at this as a "payoff".  Since this factual information was made public and published in the 2011 Nationals program, it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who pays attention.  What is the consensus here? 

Don't do "Judged" Car shows for this very reason. You can try and fight it all you want, but like the Proctologist  told a friend of mine...."Son, the more you relax, the easier this is going to go on BOTH of us"...

Either learn to deal, or get out now and let the big money guys take over yet another facet of the hobby. They've already taken over Drag racing, NASCAR, etc.

I don't need a f*cking  soul to tell me how "Well" I did on a resto. By subjecting yourself to this sh*t, that's what you looking for and with any sport that has a high level of envy when achieved, some rich/well off people find a way to f*ck it up for the rest. Just the way it is.

[ChallengerHK]

I wish you luck. In my experience, though, you can't eliminate politics. The best you can do is shift the focus of the politics.

[JS27N0B]

With all due respect, you obviously have no idea the type of person I am.  Never underestimate ones ability to change a desired outcome!  Situations such as this has been the "gas on fire" combination I have needed to move forward.  The comments posted here have fueled what I was already considering taking on.  I have the means, the contacts and the passion to start a Judging venue that is sanctioned and certified by the actual Automobile Manufacturers.  There is currently not a SINGLE judging program that is approved or commissioned by Chrysler.  I have contacted them to source a judging program that is sanctioned by their authority.  The Judges will be tested to ensure they they possess the necessary knowledge and qualifications as it relates to specific areas of expertise.  It is time to interject professional qualities and attributes into the Chrysler Judging program.  NO more politics.....NO more games....NO more conflicting judging criteria!!

Sounds like a great idea!
If you can still find these people of knowledge, why not create some kind of documentation that the world can then use as an acceptable bible by which their car was built while the people are still alive??
I'd be first in line to buy that book as I hate not knowing conclusivley that something I have restored is correct. Better to do right, and do it once!

[RamSRT]

Due to a couple of phone conversations I have received, I will gladly illustrate/prove what I am referring to.  Below is a copy of a judging sheet to show the inconsistent and "political" behavior I have disclosed.  I merged the sections together to eliminate having to post too many pages.  The areas shown are EXACTLY as they appeared on the judging sheets however.  Notice the "missing" Fusible link ID tag, Headlight harness tag and the "Aftermarket" Emission decal section.  They deducted the same amount for a "missing" decal in relation to a Factory Exact, OE certified, Chrysler Licensed decal!  (Many of our licensed decals can be found in the Mopar Restoration catalog with Chrysler assigned part numbers.  They are classified as OE replacement parts.)  If they deduct for "aftermarket" decals, why are they not deducting for the "aftermarket" paints that are used throughout the restoration? 

Also notice the Manual pedal support bracket missing the foam seal and the Master cylinder seal to firewall sections.  They give a HALF point deduction towards a seal that was completely missing but then gave an "aftermarket" seal a ONE point deduction.  This person would have scored better if he had completely eliminated the Master Cylinder seal from his vehicle!  How can you give a 0.5 deduction for "originality" on a component that is missing?  This is just a SMALL sample of the contradictions that can be seen throughout this person's judging sheets.  It is sad that the Mopar Hobbyist is being subjected to this type of idiotic judging.   Maybe one of the "class act" individuals that is part of this OE program can help explain these blatant contradictions!

   

Hi Dave,


With the way the judging has been exposed, disclosing all of this information will probably put the record of the Valiant in jeopardy.  Does it really even matter now that the level of judging has been lowered?

[fishn4cuda]

I'd like to chime in here..I dont have a good answer, But I believe the lack of a lift was due to lack of sponsership / funding....and yes judging has changed in some avenues. I know...cause I have been and am one of those judges at The Nats in Columbus. The economy has tanked the vast sponsorship it takes to make that type of event what it is supposed to be. Those judging devote their time for the good of the hobby.