SURVIVOR vs. GROUND-UP RESTORATION!

[resq302]

Actually, Dave, I was referring to spray painting the color of the car onto the body in regards to getting over spray at various points of the car.  Would they have used some kind of a card board template on the line to prevent over spray from getting onto certain areas?  Such as underside of the floor boards, wheel wells, etc.

[resq302]

Good grief, Dave.  I never know how much work that would have entailed!  Thats true insanity right there.  (insane, but CORRECT non-the-less!)   

[anlauto]

Would it have been easier to remove 100% of the original undercoat from the underside and re-spray the entire surface with new?

[resq302]

Anlauto,

They probably would have saved a lot less time doing that, however, that would have just voided the entire objective of the project.  There would be no way to exactly replace the undercoating in the same manner unless you were the assembly line worker and even then, the pattern would probably deviate a little.

Take ones signature and hand writing for example.  Do you sign your name exactly the same way EVERY time?  I know I don't especially since my hand writing style has changed over the years.  For a time, I had been doing a loop in the L in my name when I signed my name.  I no longer do that and do something different.  This could also be the case with a person covering someones break on the assembly line.  Im sure Chrysler had no plans on shuttin down an entire plant just so people could take a break.  They probably rotated people in and out to keep the line going.

So, easier, most likely.  Correct as far as the rest of the car, completely wrong for the car.

[anlauto]

I certainly don't claim to know the history of all the OE Gold contenders out there, but I think by restoring an extremely clean survivor you were light years ahead of someone restoring a car with rust issues or missing parts etc...
The Valiant retained all the paint and undercoating characteristics, inspections marks etc... that in most cases are long gone.

I used this comparison when talking with a fellow car guy the other day.....

Think of these car as a Dinosaur skeleton on display in a museum.....Lets say the Dinosaur has 1000 different bones....The Valiant had 999 of the original bones that needed to be painstakingly preserved, cleaned and re-assembled to create the most accurate skeleton out there. Other cars restored to OE Gold as well started out with only 750 bones. Each of those bones went through the same restoration as the Valiants, but the other 250 had to be reproduced or made from scratch to look like original bones in order to complete the skeleton.  From the view of the judges, both Skeletons are very impressive, and both won Gold, while one is built with more original parts  they both took extreme amount of time and talent to achieve.

I was thinking of the undercoat from a judging perspective...Because you took countless hours preserving the original undercoat, I think it would have been quite obvious, if say, you messed up the under coat on the new gas tank. By that I mean, lets say you had the spray direction or thickness COMPLETELY off, or had no undercoating at all, I would think this would be apparent to the judges....

Question is : Could they deduct for that obvious flaw?

In comparison, how about a car that DID have all the original undercoating removed, then replaced with an OE appearing application of new undercoat....How could a judge question that application or spray direction, patterns etc...especially if the original floor pans were rusted and replaced and there were no "before" pictures supplied to the judges?

Can a judge make assumptions about the direction of undercoat splatter when there is no original to compare it to?

Is undercoating even a judged area of the car ?

...and Dave you keep mentioning "before" pictures of the competition, Do the judges request them as well ?

[moparman82]

good work man, looks great, any word on a delivery date for ur new s'ray?

[anlauto]

I wasn't trying to defend either method of the building of the skeleton. Obvious the other restoration companies didn't stamp their own floor pans, mold rad hoses, plug wires, or VIN door decals etc....What I meant to point out is that regardless of how many original bones they had, the judges seemed to view the Dinosaurs as being equal (OE GOLD) even though one Dinosaur started off with more original bones.

I agree wholeheartedly, that preserving 999 original bones is not an easy task and that replacing the bones with new reproduction ones would be easier, but not every archaeological dig produces 999/1000 bones. These other guys worked very hard with what bones they had and used the best available plaster to create the remaining bones.

Your Valiant is the highest scoring car ever...No one debates that. In 2011 you had the 15 minutes of fame that go along with OE GOLD . I don't see why you continuously put down the other restoration companies ? Why not allow them their 15 minutes ?

[anlauto]

Sorry Dave.
I guess I'm only seeing (reading) one side of the story. I didn't realize a certain shop was putting down your efforts on the Valiant publicly.

You've always displayed your products with pictures of the originals, and pictures of the competitions, not only to show how yours are a perfect match, but to point out that the others are not. I thought this constant bashing was to some extent, the same style gratification . I guess I was wrong.

If a particular company has lied about your Valiant restoration, then you have every right to challenge them.

 

[resq302]

nice comparison shots!  more pics please.  I remember on the challenger, the trans cross member mount was painted yellow.  Was the trans mount also painted yellow on the Valiant?  Any idea as to why they were yellow instead of natural or black?

[resq302]

This is the 1969 T/A that my good "friends" described in an earlier post.  It has the original transmission, rear end, interior & body panels.  The hood was rusty beyond repair but I located an NOS one to replace it.  I will get a couple of pictures of the NOS hood and post it soon.  As I said earlier, it has a WZ block that I have to investigate further.  I can't see the VIN numbers stamped on the Engine pad but it will be interesting to see what they are.  These pictures should save mike & tony some "Rainy day in the Future" efforts.  After seeing their work, they can certainly find a better use of their time!
































     

Dave,

Have you started any work on the T/A yet or have you been focusing on the 'cuda protoype?  Any more info on the engine?  Im sure you are pretty deep in with the 'cuda but if you are anything like me, you have your hands on many projects at the same time, not just focusing on finishing one thing and then going onto the next.

[resq302]

I guess the judges weren't aware that Chrysler had more than one vendor should one company have a strike, shortage, or some other unforeseen issue, that would have made Chrysler come to a screeching halt.

[resq302]

I think by now it has become quite apparent that "things" were fabricated in order to find something to justify their Judging hierarchy.  Power Steering Fluid Color?  Canadian vs. American Tire Manufacturers? Those imaginary things were deducted on the Valiant, yet REAL things (listed below) were not noticed on vehicles in the years that followed!  

*The inside of the upper rubber snubber "cups" completely painted from the underside. 
*Paint coverage totally inconsistent to Factory protocol. 
*Incorrect looking undercoating.
*Hoses positioned incorrectly. 
*Contradicting patterns in Undercoating coverage.
*Engine paint that looks like it was wet sanded and buffed. 
*Deliberate incorrect coverage of paint on the bottom side of the Engine.
*Parts that should have been painted as a unit but painted apart & then reassembled.
*Door strikers that looked like gold plated Jewelry.
*Over Spray contradictions everywhere on the underside of the Body.
*Deliberate, phony appearing Inspection Marks.
*No pinch weld blackout

Dave,

Im a little    as to what you mean by contradicting paint patterns for the undercoating and inconsistant paint coverage according to factory protocol.  Are you saying that paint was put on too thick or too thin deliberately in areas as opposed to how the factory did it?  If that is the case, couldn't that be considered over restored and points be deducted from deviating from "factory standards"?

[anlauto]

I wouldn't say it is "sour grapes" knowing how professional Dave is in both his business and hobbies, however I can't figure out if the reoccurring negative comments are directed towards other restoration companies he has a personal beef with, or directed towards the same judging staff that awarded OE Gold to both his Valiant and every car that has followed ?

It's my understanding that the Valiant still holds the record as the highest scoring OE Gold car.

By being able to preserve most or the original characteristics in the original paint and undercoating of the Valiant, "Team Valiant" was light years ahead of anybody that needed to try and reproduce these characteristics on floor pans and inner aprons that didn't even exist when the project started.
By not stripping the Valiant 100% back down to bare metal, the task of trying to reproduce factory techniques altogether was not necessary. Restoring and preserving what was there originally was all that was needed, be it no small task.


I would like to believe it's the judging that is flawed more so then the efforts of everybody involved. 

[anlauto]

Dave
Please read the quote you made of my post again.  I clearly stated it was no small task. I certainly wasn't trying to belittle the job your team did.
Your comments directed towards the paint conflicts of the other OE Gold cars can't really be justified if they were painting cars that had complete panels removed and replaced never mind measuring the thickness of paint removed.

Your Valiant offered up so much information that was documented and either preserved or copied that the other cars did not. It's that simple.

For reference post the interior shot of your Valiant floor pan compared to the interior floor pan shot of the white Daytona that you posted earlier and you might see my point.
Alan

[anlauto]

I don't always believe what I read...