SURVIVOR vs. GROUND-UP RESTORATION!

Author Topic: SURVIVOR vs. GROUND-UP RESTORATION!  (Read 189827 times)

Offline resq302

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1114
Re: SURVIVOR vs. GROUND-UP RESTORATION!
« Reply #480 on: November 22, 2013 - 01:15:06 PM »
How can the word "restored" have a broad and general meaning when the definition is this:

re·store  (r-stôr, -str)
tr.v. re·stored, re·stor·ing, re·stores
1. To bring back into existence or use; reestablish: restore law and order.
2. To bring back to an original condition: restore a building. See Synonyms at revive.
3. To put (someone) back in a former position: restore the emperor to the throne.
4. To make restitution of; give back: restore the stolen funds.

Can something have more than one original condition?   :clueless:




Offline ChallengerHK

  • Moderator
  • Sr. Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 7338
  • I'm working on it - No, really
Re: SURVIVOR vs. GROUND-UP RESTORATION!
« Reply #481 on: November 22, 2013 - 01:55:25 PM »
Really, you're heading down the wrong trail. At breakneck speed. I'm an English major, BA and MA, and I taught both English and Logic/Critical Thinking at university level. I'm a published writer, and I've edited 4 magazines. You arguing language with me is like me telling you how to restore a car. I know that I would end up looking foolish in a very short time if I were to do that.

There is no other meaning or interpretation for the word Restore. 

All language is open to interpretation, as I'm sure you realize, deep down. Most disagreements are due to different connotations of words, i.e., contextually different definitions.

Therefore it is not an "oxymoron".  The word "restore" has no dual meaning for how it is used.

First, yes, "jumbo shrimp" is an oxymoron. It's also a phrase that describes a real thing. That's my point.

Second, the meaning of words changes over time. This is why the Oxford English Dictionary people get together every year and decide what new words and phrases to add. So, "over-restore" may not have appeared in a dictionary yet, but that doesn't mean that it has no meaning, nor does it mean that it doesn't describe a real condition. "Cyberspace" is a made up word, and when it was made up, it described something that already existed, something that people needed a word for. "Selfie" is one of this year's new words; it, too describes something real.

So, language is what it is, it changes, it evolves to meet the needs of the times, and your blood pressure will be a lot lower if you just accept that.

Now, this ultimately started with you making a statement, and me trying to clarify your meaning (connotations, again). Alan had pointed out that you were changing the vehicle when you went through your restoration process, and your response appeared to be "That doesn't matter, because the change is invisible." There's lots of ways to interpret that (interpretations, again) but I want to first verify that that's what you meant to say  :bigsmile:


"She'll make point five past light speed. She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, and I've made a lot of special modifications myself."

- Han Solo, Star Wars

Advice Thread - Taking Pictures Of Cars

Offline ChallengerHK

  • Moderator
  • Sr. Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 7338
  • I'm working on it - No, really
Re: SURVIVOR vs. GROUND-UP RESTORATION!
« Reply #482 on: November 22, 2013 - 02:15:16 PM »
With all due respect, you are "wrong" about the direction I have taken.  A person's credentials does not make them impervious to being wrong.  I don't debate my opinions and state them as "fact".  Rather than continue discussing future hypotheticals and unsubstantiated opinions, please show me ONE documented (VALID) third party publication where the word "Restore" means anything other than the definition listed below:

Well, you've again missed my point. Words change all the time, and people make up new words, and make up new ways to use existing words. On the other hand, thanks for making it easing to respond. Alan is an expert in the field, and he uses the phrase "over-restore" in a way that several other people (probably at least hundreds, maybe thousands) understand it, to mean a vehicle that has been restored, but finished to a state beyond the state it was in when it rolled off the assembly line.


"She'll make point five past light speed. She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, and I've made a lot of special modifications myself."

- Han Solo, Star Wars

Advice Thread - Taking Pictures Of Cars

Offline ChallengerHK

  • Moderator
  • Sr. Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 7338
  • I'm working on it - No, really
Re: SURVIVOR vs. GROUND-UP RESTORATION!
« Reply #483 on: November 22, 2013 - 02:23:13 PM »
Hey look what I found:  :bigsmile:

"According to Cox (1916), the church was restored in 1860, when the chancel was rebuilt, although the canopied sedilia was retained.[2][3] In 1964 Pevsner noted 1798 repairs and considered the church "over-restored"."

"In 1846 the Gothic Revival architect G.E. Street re-roofed the church and restored the north wall. In 1889 the rood screen and loft were restored.[2] St. Mary's has never been over-restored, and its Decorated and Perpendicular mediaeval character has survived almost intact."

"There are no images of Bishop Vesey (although a more or less contemporary effigy of him exists on his rather over-restored tomb in the town's parish church of the Holy Trinity)"

Maybe it's a term that entered the language through the field of architecture. It appears to be very popular there. And now it's becoming used in an automotive sense.


"She'll make point five past light speed. She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, and I've made a lot of special modifications myself."

- Han Solo, Star Wars

Advice Thread - Taking Pictures Of Cars

Offline ChallengerHK

  • Moderator
  • Sr. Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 7338
  • I'm working on it - No, really
Re: SURVIVOR vs. GROUND-UP RESTORATION!
« Reply #484 on: November 22, 2013 - 02:27:46 PM »
But wait, there's more. From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_restoration#Over_restoration

Over restoration is the case of the completed restoration resulting in a vehicle finished to a standard that is higher than when the vehicle was in when manufactured. Aspects may include excessively flatted and polished paint finishes or electroplating and polishing of parts that were not so finished originally.

From aaca.org:

While I am a purist, I realize that it is almost impossible to restore a car without some over-restoration. For example, basically any paint that you buy today is going to give a better paint job than the average antique car came from the factory with. I personally like to see my car and others as close to how they looked originally as possible, but I would not specifically try to do bad hood/door alignment, or poor quality paint trying to "more accurately" replicate the original fit and finish of an antique car as it came from the production line.

So apparently it's being used in the auto field already.


"She'll make point five past light speed. She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, and I've made a lot of special modifications myself."

- Han Solo, Star Wars

Advice Thread - Taking Pictures Of Cars

Offline ChallengerHK

  • Moderator
  • Sr. Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 7338
  • I'm working on it - No, really
Re: SURVIVOR vs. GROUND-UP RESTORATION!
« Reply #485 on: November 22, 2013 - 03:21:02 PM »
you will not find ONE legitimate definition for the word "restore" that means ANYTHING other than its original definition.

The original definition, i.e., the earliest definition, or at least the earliest definition that I can find,  is the return of a monarchy after a period of absence. Is that the "original definition" you mean?  :roflsmiley: Or would you say that the word has changed definitions over the centuries, just as it's changing now?

Dave, you're truly painting yourself to be an ass. Now take this as you will, but this is my heartfelt, serious advice to help you not look like an ass. If I were in your position, I would say this: "I don't prefer to use the word restoration in that context." That way, reality can be reality, and you can maintain your opinion. Let me show you how this can work.

I personally very much dislike the term "survivor" as it's used in the hobby. The cars that are called survivors didn't survive anything; more often than not, they've been pampered. However, that's the way that survivor is used, and I accept that. Every now and then I make my opinion known, and make sure it's phrased as an opinion, and then I drop it.

So, the word "restoration" is used in the hobby in the context and phrase that Alan has described. You don't have to like it, but you also can't wish it away, and trying to do so is making you look stubborn, not informed. The phrase exists, and people use it. Take my advice, make your peace with it, and move on.


"She'll make point five past light speed. She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, and I've made a lot of special modifications myself."

- Han Solo, Star Wars

Advice Thread - Taking Pictures Of Cars

Offline anlauto

  • Permanent Resident
  • *******
  • Posts: 12328
  • I'm Alan G...I'm a Mopar Addict
    • Alan Gallant Automotive Restoration
Re: SURVIVOR vs. GROUND-UP RESTORATION!
« Reply #486 on: November 22, 2013 - 04:12:03 PM »
Another quote from ECS's above post
Quote
When we restored the Valiant....
...

Actually the Valiant is NOT restored....You've admitted that you used RPM on it, so from now on, by your definition it is modified NOT restored. Please stop referring to your car as restored...You're misusing the word. :nono:

....and on a personal note.....THank you for spell-checking my work....My Google tool bar doesn't always work :smilielol:
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013 - 04:13:57 PM by anlauto »
I've taught you everything you know.....but I haven't taught you everything I know !
www.alangallantautomotiverestoration.com

Offline ChallengerHK

  • Moderator
  • Sr. Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 7338
  • I'm working on it - No, really
Re: SURVIVOR vs. GROUND-UP RESTORATION!
« Reply #487 on: November 22, 2013 - 04:44:42 PM »
Tell me (and I'm being very serious here) what do you feel that you are personally giving up by admitting that "over-restore" is a real phrase that describes a real condition? How is it affecting your life?


"She'll make point five past light speed. She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, and I've made a lot of special modifications myself."

- Han Solo, Star Wars

Advice Thread - Taking Pictures Of Cars

Offline anlauto

  • Permanent Resident
  • *******
  • Posts: 12328
  • I'm Alan G...I'm a Mopar Addict
    • Alan Gallant Automotive Restoration
Re: SURVIVOR vs. GROUND-UP RESTORATION!
« Reply #488 on: November 22, 2013 - 05:25:22 PM »

......and ChallengerHK thinks I'm the "ass"?  :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol:
Ohhh...nice deflection........Did I spell that correct ? :screwy: :smilielol:
I've taught you everything you know.....but I haven't taught you everything I know !
www.alangallantautomotiverestoration.com

Offline ChallengerHK

  • Moderator
  • Sr. Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 7338
  • I'm working on it - No, really
Re: SURVIVOR vs. GROUND-UP RESTORATION!
« Reply #489 on: November 22, 2013 - 05:42:30 PM »
No deflection Alan!  We actually did "restore" the Valiant a

Now, was that bringing back the Valiant monarchy? Because you did say that you wanted to use only the original definition.  :wave:


"She'll make point five past light speed. She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, and I've made a lot of special modifications myself."

- Han Solo, Star Wars

Advice Thread - Taking Pictures Of Cars

Offline anlauto

  • Permanent Resident
  • *******
  • Posts: 12328
  • I'm Alan G...I'm a Mopar Addict
    • Alan Gallant Automotive Restoration
Re: SURVIVOR vs. GROUND-UP RESTORATION!
« Reply #490 on: November 22, 2013 - 05:53:06 PM »
Well...At least now you're admitting that the Valiant is no longer "restored" and that it is indeed modified. :2thumbs:

I think now you need to go back to your other fourm and change your quote.

Quote
About 99% of the Cars that are refinished are actually Modified, Altered or Customized. They no longer exhibit the original aspects for how they were built with. Many people don't like their vehicle classified as Modified or Customized because it reminds them of a Car with Mag Wheels and a Blower sticking up out of the Hood. The fact is that if you change ANY aspect of how a Car came from the Factory, you have Modified, Altered or Customized it! The word "Restoration" is loosely and incorrectly used too many times when refurbishing an Automobile.

Obiviously it needs to read 100% of all cars....  :2cents: Geez...I hope you're not "one of those people"  :roflsmiley:


I've taught you everything you know.....but I haven't taught you everything I know !
www.alangallantautomotiverestoration.com

Offline JS27N0B

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 4809
  • Member since Jan 28th 2003.
Re: SURVIVOR vs. GROUND-UP RESTORATION!
« Reply #491 on: November 22, 2013 - 06:04:36 PM »
You know this has been a great thread....:drama: can we please agree to get back on topic as I'm tired of getting these notifications and would hate to have to unsubscribe to this topic.
1970 Challenger R/T Convertible 383/auto 1 of 516 *now sold after owning for 18yrs
2007 Chrysler Aspen Limited AWD
2013 Tige' RZR 343hp
2016 PCP Challenger SRT Hellcat


Offline JS27N0B

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 4809
  • Member since Jan 28th 2003.
Re: SURVIVOR vs. GROUND-UP RESTORATION!
« Reply #492 on: November 22, 2013 - 06:04:54 PM »
You know this has been a great thread....:drama: can we please agree to get back on topic as I'm tired of getting these notifications and would hate to have to unsubscribe to this topic.
1970 Challenger R/T Convertible 383/auto 1 of 516 *now sold after owning for 18yrs
2007 Chrysler Aspen Limited AWD
2013 Tige' RZR 343hp
2016 PCP Challenger SRT Hellcat


Offline ChallengerHK

  • Moderator
  • Sr. Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 7338
  • I'm working on it - No, really
Re: SURVIVOR vs. GROUND-UP RESTORATION!
« Reply #493 on: November 23, 2013 - 01:01:16 AM »
(I apologize JS27JOB but I Love it when these guys think they  :stirpot: but in actuality are keeping the "search engines" stoked for those who do a Google search for RPM.  :smilielol:)

See, I think THAT'S really the core issue I asked about above. Your deep fear is that if you admit that there's one thing about restoring (and over-restoring) a car that you're not the leading expert on in the world, that you'll lose business. From a Freudian standpoint I'd guess that this is how your father treated you, something along the lines of "If you don't know everything then you know nothing," and your reaction is a projection onto those you perceive to be your enemies, i.e. "They disagree with me, so they're trying to take away my business, but I'll show them."



"She'll make point five past light speed. She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, and I've made a lot of special modifications myself."

- Han Solo, Star Wars

Advice Thread - Taking Pictures Of Cars

Offline hemiken

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 8785
  • Hemi-fied Mopar in Australia
Re: SURVIVOR vs. GROUND-UP RESTORATION!
« Reply #494 on: November 23, 2013 - 06:22:51 AM »
Hi Dave,

With those samples of RPM you sent me :thinkerg: , would it be best to lightly heat up the small tubs to apply the coating to make it stick to the brush please ? I know i have to heat up the part lightly to allow the molecules of the steel absorb the RPM product better, just thought i would ask as others might be interested in the application as well, or do you have a link to a application video by any chance please. :wave:

Thank you, Kenny. :clapping:
1970 Barracuda   (O^--^===|===^--^O)
1971 Barracuda   (O O {]{]{]|[}[}[} O O)
1970 Challenger  (O O [======R/T=] O O)
1971 Challenger  (O O ===== ===== O O)
I pay homage to the best Mopars ever built.