727 to A518 swap – a novice guide

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Offline Haddixj

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Re: 727 to A518 swap – a novice guide
« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2012 - 02:43:26 PM »
Thanks for the fast reply. I just wanted to make sure I am putting a 6.1 hemi in the car and would love the od. So that's where I will head with it. I will probably build the lower crossmember thats easy enough with plate. Thanks again. When these are rebuilt can you put a shift kit in them just like a 727?
Jason




Offline Aussie Challenger

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Re: 727 to A518 swap – a novice guide
« Reply #46 on: July 13, 2012 - 06:56:32 PM »
Shift kits are available, either the Transgo or Sonnax kit which I don't know much about but believe is good option, maybe somebody who has used both could comment?   :burnout:
Dave

Offline ntstlgl1970

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Re: 727 to A518 swap – a novice guide
« Reply #47 on: July 13, 2012 - 11:54:32 PM »
Shift kits are available, either the Transgo or Sonnax kit which I don't know much about but believe is good option, maybe somebody who has used both could comment?   :burnout:
I have a TFOD2 shift kit from Transgo in my 618 along with a bunch of sonnax and TCS parts. The sonnax "sure cure" (which i would have bought if I knew about it at the time) kit is a great kit, but its not a "shift kit" per se. There are parts in the sonnax kit to fix problems that the transgo kit doesn't address. The transgo kit has springs to tailor the shift points that the sonnax kit does not address. Do a lot of research online before diving into one of these things. If you go to the sonnax site, transgo site, ATSG site and the tcsproducts site you can access tech pages that describe common problems. Just keep in mind that many aftermarket companies lump valve body data for the a500/a518/a618 (which include the 42rh/44rh/42re/44re/46rh/46re/47re/48re) The main thing to watch out for the RH (hydraulic control) model data vs. the RE (Electronic control) data. Many of the hard parts between the transmissions can be swapped, but you need to do a lot of research before doing so just in case. There are a lot of parts in the main trans case that will swap with a 727 as well.
70 Cuda, 7.0L Gen-III Hemi, Viper T56 w/9310 gearset, 3.91's, Megasquirt MS3x v3.57, Innovate wideband, Firm Feel upper arms, torsion bars, springs and strut rods, QA1 DA shocks. I did everything on this car except the fancy paint stuff and I drive it...and I can't seem to stop messing with it....

Offline Aussie Challenger

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Re: 727 to A518 swap – a novice guide
« Reply #48 on: July 14, 2012 - 09:45:11 AM »
Thanks for that ntstlgl1970. I have been to some of those sites and also to the PATC site which seems to have a lot of HP upgrade parts which I don't think many are needed for a strong street cruiser unless you start racing the vehicle which I don't intend doing. I am leaning towards the Sonnax kit myself as it seems to address the "fixes" and I would like to know if it also firms up the gear changes getting rid of the sloppy flair between gear changes? I liked the firm change which the early 904 & 727 trans had back then but I don't want a clunk when changing as a racing trans tends to give.
Having the trans pump oil into the convertor in Park is a good idea and I would prefer to fit the modified selector spool instead of drilling the valve body because that then allows the convertor to drain back when engine is shut down.
I have been told also that you should not fit a 46RH valve body into a 47RH trans being the diesel trans but can use the 47RH clutches in the 46RH and a few other 47RH parts which are more HD than the 46RH.
Dave

Offline ntstlgl1970

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Re: 727 to A518 swap – a novice guide
« Reply #49 on: July 15, 2012 - 06:28:12 PM »
Thanks for that ntstlgl1970. I have been to some of those sites and also to the PATC site which seems to have a lot of HP upgrade parts which I don't think many are needed for a strong street cruiser unless you start racing the vehicle which I don't intend doing. I am leaning towards the Sonnax kit myself as it seems to address the "fixes" and I would like to know if it also firms up the gear changes getting rid of the sloppy flair between gear changes? I liked the firm change which the early 904 & 727 trans had back then but I don't want a clunk when changing as a racing trans tends to give.
Having the trans pump oil into the convertor in Park is a good idea and I would prefer to fit the modified selector spool instead of drilling the valve body because that then allows the convertor to drain back when engine is shut down.
I have been told also that you should not fit a 46RH valve body into a 47RH trans being the diesel trans but can use the 47RH clutches in the 46RH and a few other 47RH parts which are more HD than the 46RH.
I have not built a 500 trans so everything I mention relates to the 518/618-

A lot of the things sold on the PATC site are built by sonnax and TCS. The frictions and steels for the direct and forward clutch (in the main case) are common between a 727 and 518, same options, etc. The kickdown band is the same. The low/reverse band depends on if it's a V8 or V10/diesel trans. You can tell the V10/diesel (47) trans in the wrecking yards by the extra ribbing on the outside of the case next to the low/reverse servo. When you get into the overdrive unit, there are all sorts of options depending on the engine. The ATSG manual for these transmissions does a good job explaining the differences between pressure plates, clutch packs and pistons in the overdrive unit. The overdrive on the 48RE trans has a different clutch pack than the earlier versions. What it all boils down to is that the last 46/47RH transmissions had the most clutches, most refinements and best reliability. If you could score a 94-95 model year trans that would be the best choice for a hydraulic controlled model. If you decide to go the electronic version route, then the last versions prior to the electronically controlled throttle pressure versions would be the best for swapping. I think the electronic throttle pressure versions came out in 2001 or 2002.

I think if someone was to build a good core trans using the sonnax sure cure kit, good build practices (cleanliness, close inspection, air checking servos and clutches, measuring everything correctly)and quality parts would have a good trans. If you wanted to change the shift points then add in a transgo shift kit for those springs.
70 Cuda, 7.0L Gen-III Hemi, Viper T56 w/9310 gearset, 3.91's, Megasquirt MS3x v3.57, Innovate wideband, Firm Feel upper arms, torsion bars, springs and strut rods, QA1 DA shocks. I did everything on this car except the fancy paint stuff and I drive it...and I can't seem to stop messing with it....

Offline leanburn

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Re: 727 to A518 swap – a novice guide
« Reply #50 on: July 15, 2012 - 06:55:45 PM »
 i have been looking or a non lockup for some time now with no luck. i did find a lockup. how much power can the lock up handle with good internals?

Offline ntstlgl1970

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Re: 727 to A518 swap – a novice guide
« Reply #51 on: July 15, 2012 - 07:14:35 PM »
You can get a lockup converter (23 spline) with the lock up feature eliminated. I think those are still somewhat reasonable in price. Ultimately, the converter clutch depends on what you are doing. You would not want to try and lock the converter under heavy throttle, it's going to slip.  If adding one of these transmissions behind a big block using the JW ultrabell, you are limited to a 10" converter (due to the ID of the bellhousing). Getting a 10" lockup converter is expensive, say $600 and up.  If you are putting one behind a small block, there might be more options but those would probably be limited to a larger diameter (12") converter. The V10 and diesel converters (which are gigantic 13") have options for multiple clutches and maybe one of those setups could be adapted for a 12". The unknown would be if the stack height of the converter would require a spacer between the trans and engine to fit it all in there. Ultimate (I think) Converter could build a 10" lockup for me but they required a 1/4" spacer. Since I already had everything else built in the car, adding that spacer would have made me have to go back and redo the exhaust, crossmember and trans mount at least. A place up in Redding, CA. built mine at the stock assembly height (Spec Rite Converters) but it was expensive. I'm pretty happy with mine so far. Again, you wouldnt want to try and lock the converter under heavy throttle and you probably wouldn't leave the converter locked if you were to floor it. Other than that, a converter is a converter. You can build something as crazy as you want (billet front end, billet stator, steel stator, mechanical diode and so on) depending on how much money you want to throw at it. If it's good enough for a cummins diesel with 500 ft lbs of torque in a 5500 lb truck stock, it should be ok for a 3500lb car with more power.
70 Cuda, 7.0L Gen-III Hemi, Viper T56 w/9310 gearset, 3.91's, Megasquirt MS3x v3.57, Innovate wideband, Firm Feel upper arms, torsion bars, springs and strut rods, QA1 DA shocks. I did everything on this car except the fancy paint stuff and I drive it...and I can't seem to stop messing with it....

Offline leanburn

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Re: 727 to A518 swap – a novice guide
« Reply #52 on: July 15, 2012 - 07:29:04 PM »
so just to be clear the torque is the week point? the rest of the transmission are equal ?

Offline ntstlgl1970

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Re: 727 to A518 swap – a novice guide
« Reply #53 on: July 15, 2012 - 08:31:11 PM »
so just to be clear the torque is the week point? the rest of the transmission are equal ?

The torque converter clutch is the weak link in any auto trans GM/Ford/Mopar doesn't really matter. If you were to build the trans up with better internals it will handle more power just like a 727. The overdrive section adds about 30-40 lbs of rotating mass to the transmission. For drag racing the 727 would be a better choice.
70 Cuda, 7.0L Gen-III Hemi, Viper T56 w/9310 gearset, 3.91's, Megasquirt MS3x v3.57, Innovate wideband, Firm Feel upper arms, torsion bars, springs and strut rods, QA1 DA shocks. I did everything on this car except the fancy paint stuff and I drive it...and I can't seem to stop messing with it....

Offline scorpn

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Re: 727 to A518 swap – a novice guide
« Reply #54 on: July 16, 2012 - 02:48:47 AM »
Finally got back under the Cuda and snapped a few pics of my 518 install..

The minor mod I need on Rory's cross-member for the e-brake equalizer rod..


Rory's fabulous cross-member..


Hydraulic switch assembly..


Cable shifter and Kickdown cable..


Damn but this was a TIGHT fit..


Oh well, the car runs very nice and the shifting is great. Love being able to cruise at 75 on the interstate at 2000 rpm...

Offline 360FISH

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Re: 727 to A518 swap – a novice guide
« Reply #55 on: July 16, 2012 - 12:53:14 PM »
Great pictures Scropn. 

Yep, if that speedo gear was just a little bit further back it would scew up the entire modification. 

How are you liking the pressure switch setup?  Shift point where you want it?  Do you have any other pictures of how you hooked it up and wired it?

Did you setup a cutoff switch?

Enjoy!

Alan
1973 ‘Cuda   Semi-Pro Touring
360 SB - 518/OD auto tranny - FAST EZ EFI - Edelbrock Fuel sump - HHR fan
Hella H4 headlights on relays - 97 Dodge Avenger seats - Chin spoiler - Bumpers pulled in to ’72 offset

Build: http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=74674.0

Offline bkilby

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Re: 727 to A518 swap – a novice guide
« Reply #56 on: July 19, 2012 - 10:03:39 PM »
Lots of great information guys!  I haven't ran across this thread until today, but I've already started my swap.  Just bolted the tranny in today, just gotta work around all the little stuff now. 

A couple of notes though, evidently my engine/trans sits a little farther forward than 360fish's.  My speedo cable came out a little in front of the back bracket for the cross member.  Not behind it.  That introduced a couple of problems.  The first was, well, it hit the cross member.  The second was the crimped portion of the cable was hitting the upper cross member (is that what you call it?).  That and, the cable was being pulled extremely tight to the point where one guy had to pull the cable while I screwed it on.  I ended up getting a longer cable made locally but I haven't installed it yet. 




We also couldn't get the driveline angles to our liking and ended up trimming both sides of the OD and cutting that upper cross member.  The tranny needed to go higher so we clearanced what we felt was necessary and welded plates back in.  Different cars, different dimensions I guess. 

Anyhow, we'll be working on this again tomorrow to try and get it finished.  I still need to order the pressure switch and figure out how I'm going to tap into that right hand port.  It's way too close to the tub to just screw it in.  Looks like a little hose fabbing is in order.   :)

360fish, I know you're in SoCal.  I'm in Burbank.  We should get together and talk cars sometime.   :)

Brad (416 SB, Pro Trans A518 Non lock up)

Offline 360FISH

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Re: 727 to A518 swap – a novice guide
« Reply #57 on: July 20, 2012 - 01:18:27 AM »
Hey Brad!  Interesting.. that's the first time I've seen the speedo miss like that in the research I did for the swap.

It's not off by much though...  probably about a half an inch.   

I'm curious to know how the car sits and everything aligns when you get it back on the ground.

Yes, I'm in Simi Valley.  We'll have to Cruise Bob's when you get you car rolling again.  :)
1973 ‘Cuda   Semi-Pro Touring
360 SB - 518/OD auto tranny - FAST EZ EFI - Edelbrock Fuel sump - HHR fan
Hella H4 headlights on relays - 97 Dodge Avenger seats - Chin spoiler - Bumpers pulled in to ’72 offset

Build: http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=74674.0

Offline bkilby

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Re: 727 to A518 swap – a novice guide
« Reply #58 on: July 20, 2012 - 11:28:23 AM »
Bobs....  I go there all the time with another Cuda from Simi Valley.  Maybe you know him.....

I need that pressure switch.   Know of a local place to get one today?

Offline bkilby

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Re: 727 to A518 swap – a novice guide
« Reply #59 on: July 20, 2012 - 11:50:06 AM »
Something just occurred to me.   Didn't I see your car at the Spring Fling in a booth displaying Rory's kit?  I forget who's booth it was...