Author Topic: Help me choose springs, tires, and wheels???  (Read 4886 times)

Offline mellowguy

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Help me choose springs, tires, and wheels???
« on: May 22, 2012 - 01:57:15 PM »
Hello everybody ,

Slowly........ very slowly I am restoring my 73 Challenger. I have some new suspension  pieces, (in boxes), but I can go with anything. I have the original 8 3/4 E-body rear end but I can go with a B-Body rear end and Doctor diff spring relocation kit too.  I really want this car to handle but but also I want decent straight line performance also.  So give me some input to springs, relocation kits, e or b body rear end, what size wheels (rear and front) and tires. I want all the parts to work together. I have read a lot of posts here & there are many very sharp members. Thank you in advance.




Offline ChallengerHK

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Re: Help me choose springs, tires, and wheels???
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2012 - 02:11:09 PM »
Lots and lots of info surrounding this.

The two big things for handling are going to be sway bars and torsion bars. Good shocks make a big difference as well.
There are a few kits to replace the entire suspension, but they're spendy. My opinion is that you can get about 80% of the handling increase for about 30% of the cost of total suspension upgrade by going with things like Hotchkis tubular upper control arms, and then reinforced lower control arms, HD tie rods and HD strut rods.
Having good tires that grip well is important.


"She'll make point five past light speed. She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, and I've made a lot of special modifications myself."

- Han Solo, Star Wars

Advice Thread - Taking Pictures Of Cars

Offline PlumCraZRT

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Re: Help me choose springs, tires, and wheels???
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2012 - 02:21:38 PM »
Hello everybody ,

Slowly........ very slowly I am restoring my 73 Challenger. I have some new suspension  pieces, (in boxes), but I can go with anything. I have the original 8 3/4 E-body rear end but I can go with a B-Body rear end and Doctor diff spring relocation kit too.  I really want this car to handle but but also I want decent straight line performance also.  So give me some input to springs, relocation kits, e or b body rear end, what size wheels (rear and front) and tires. I want all the parts to work together. I have read a lot of posts here & there are many very sharp members. Thank you in advance.


I would recommend this kit: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HSS-80111/

You should have no trouble fitting 275's in the rear.  Are you looking for stock-looking wheels or aftermarket/low-profile?
mmmmm.... Mopar.... *drool*

Offline mellowguy

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Re: Help me choose springs, tires, and wheels???
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2012 - 02:43:05 PM »
Thanks for the input. Let me tell you about some of the pieces I have (listed  below) so you can maybe suggest some parts. I was considering Hotchkis rear springs, Doctor diff spring relocation kit, Hotchkis upper control arms, and 1.03 or 1.04 front torsion bars. I really need help choosing rearend (e or b), springs, spring offset kit, wheel and tire size.

1. CAP Auto adjustable strut rods
2. CAP AUTO lower control arms
3. QA1 single adjustable shocks
4. Moog idler and pit man arms
5. Hotchkis 1 1/4 Hollow front swaybar- poly bushings
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012 - 03:22:18 PM by mellowguy »

Offline 72bluNblu

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Re: Help me choose springs, tires, and wheels???
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2012 - 07:25:27 PM »
Sounds like you're on the right track to me.

If you're going to get tubular upper arms Hotchkis makes the best ones for handling. They are a little harder to set up though, because they basically replace the forward mounting location, which removes the ability to adjust the caster/camber with the camber bolt in the front. They have to be set up using the heim only, which may take a few tries. I had to pull mine apart a few times before I got it where I wanted it. You still get the rear camber bolt to make adjustments, but it limits what you can do without adjusting the heim.

If you're on a budget, you can get Moog's offset control arm bushings and use them to dial in more positive caster and a little negative camber. Doesn't fix the other geometry issues like the Hotchkis UCA's do, but they're enough to get the alignment set up properly, and on a street car that's really all you need. Tubular UCA's are nice, and they'll flex less, but unless you really push the car you probably won't notice a huge difference as long as the alignment is set to more modern specs.

Torsion bars- do you have a big or small block car? Actually, 1.03" bars are a good choice either way, although if you've got a big block and really want it to handle on rails you might consider Firm Feel's 1.06" bars. I run 1.12" bars on my small block Challenger, but its STIFF on the street, not always a comfortable ride. Anything in the 1" to 1.03" range makes for a good ride, and with the Hotchkis sway bar up front to take care of any extra roll it will handle just fine.

Dr. Diff is the man. I would happily recommend anything he sells. On that point, I have a B-body rear and his relocation kit in my Challenger. Makes a TON of room in the back, I run 275/40/17's all the way around, and I could easily run much larger in the back. I believe that with the right offset you could get 305's back there. BUT, you should look into interference issues at the rear valance with the hotchkis springs and Dr. Diff's kit. If you have a dual exhaust that exits through the rear valance you may have to do some trimming of the valance to get things to fit. Seems like some people can run them without issues on the Challengers and other's have inference. Seems fairly minor though, check out this thread for more info...

http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=80507.0

I still run XHD's on the back of my Challenger with the offset kit. Dr. Diff sells front hangers that work with the longer springs, so you can keep the XHD's. When I got the XHD's the car had a pretty decent rake to it, not as high in the back as super stock springs but definitely higher than stock. Now that I've run the XHD's for awhile, they've sagged quite a bit. Gotta love Mexican made springs :eek4:. I'm guessing they're still a little taller than the Hotchkis springs would be, but not by much. And the Hotchkis springs will give better handling.

I would also be sure to include a rear swaybar and subframe connectors. Hotchkis springs are designed to be used with a rear sway bar, the springs are fairly soft so you need the sway bar to control the roll. And all of our cars should have subframe connectors. You don't necessarily need the ones made by Hotchkis, but you should have something. On that note, I have a set of e-body Mopar Performance subframe connectors I got in a package deal. I don't need them, so if you want them shoot me an email and maybe we can work something out. They aren't the strongest option out there, but you can bolt them in to locate them and then weld them in for added strength.

Rims and tires depend on a lot on what style you like and how performance oriented you want the car to be. 15" rims really limit the number of available performance tires and sizes that you can get. And no, BF Goodrich T/A's are not good handling tires for cornering ability, not compared to modern compounds and designs. If you step up to 17" rims, you'll have a lot wider range of performance tires and sizes available to you, as long as you don't mind the look of the larger rims. I run 17x9" rims front and rear with a 5" backspace. More than plenty of room with the B rear in the back, but pretty much the absolute largest you can go in the front. With the 275/40/17's I run I get some rubbing on the inside front passenger fender, I really need to roll the fender lip. No issues on the drivers side, guess I can thank Mopar's assembly line tolerances for that. But I also sit LOW in the front. Ideally, I think about 5.25" of backspace in the front with a 17x9 would be ideal, it would put it right on the frame at full lock but keep it off the fenders. But that's a big tire and rim, 17x8's with smaller tire, say something in a 255, would be a lot easier to fit.


Offline mellowguy

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Re: Help me choose springs, tires, and wheels???
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2012 - 02:14:29 AM »
72 bluNblu thank you you for the suggestions.  I have a big block 500 cu inch stroker, EFI, roller cam motor going in. No air conditioning, lots of aluminum, fiberglass front bumper and hood, and the battery in the trunk. You have all the same size tires on your car. I don't know if I will do that or go with larger, wider (wheels/tires in the back). What do you think?

Offline 72bluNblu

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Re: Help me choose springs, tires, and wheels???
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2012 - 04:19:56 AM »
With all that aluminum and fiberglass I bet the 1.03" bars will be great!

As far as running all 4 tires the same size, that was just a preference on my part. Since my Challenger is my daily driver, I wanted to be able to rotate the tires. I run a decent amount of negative camber in the front for a driver (-.75 degrees), and then there's the whole RWD thing, so I wanted to spread out the wear. I also feel it helps balance the car a little better in the corners, but that argument is pretty flimsy when you start talking about having a ton of power to the rear wheels.

If you go with a spring relocation in the back you can easily fit bigger tires, I know that guys have put 305's in the back with Dr Diffs kit. I seem to recall someone trying for 315's. But its also a big jump in tire costs when you go with tires that big. It was just a cost/benefit thing for me, while you might gain some traction and performance I think you add a lot more cost than performance going from a 275 to a 305. And if you're running staggered sizes you can't rotate the tires front to rear, so you lose some tire life (cost) there too.

Offline brads70

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Re: Help me choose springs, tires, and wheels???
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2012 - 07:35:33 AM »
Thanks for the input. Let me tell you about some of the pieces I have (listed  below) so you can maybe suggest some parts. I was considering Hotchkis rear springs, Doctor diff spring relocation kit, Hotchkis upper control arms, and 1.03 or 1.04 front torsion bars. I really need help choosing rearend (e or b), springs, spring offset kit, wheel and tire size.

1. CAP Auto adjustable strut rods
2. CAP AUTO lower control arms
3. QA1 single adjustable shocks
4. Moog idler and pit man arms
5. Hotchkis 1 1/4 Hollow front swaybar- poly bushings


All great advice from 72bluNblu not much to add. Have you installed the cap auto LCA's? I have read about some issues with them ? They are not really needed IMO, unless your really lowering the car then they give you some extra travel. The stock arms work just fine. If this is going to be a street machine realistically you can only go so low before things start hitting the ground anyhow. I have the 1" t-bar and am wanting to try a bigger set, maybe the 1.060" ( mine is a 440 /727)
I just bought ( and yet to install) Hyperco composite rear leaf springs because I'm a bit of a weight freak. All the steel springs sag over time. I have ESPO (plus 1 1/2" over stock) leafs and have been happy with them, they did settle within the first month.
 You might look into the fast ratio arms , I have them and really apreciate the quicker steering. I too have the Hotchkis sway bars. Great product! :2thumbs:
If you have the stock brakes still at the very least you should look into the bigger rotor set up.
http://www.moparaction.com/Tech/archive/disc-main.html
My 2 biggest complains with e-body's are handling and the braking, with the slow steering coming in 3rd. I'm happy with the improvements I've made so far and they make the car much more enjoyable to drive.
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline mellowguy

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Re: Help me choose springs, tires, and wheels???
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2012 - 11:22:46 AM »
brads70- No I have not installed the Cap Lower control arms yet- Yea, I heard about bad welds on some of their products. I had a welder friend look at mine, he gave it a ok. I read the articles regarding the Doctor diff 1 inch relocation kit and the rear valance interference problem. The problem I saw was only on a 1970 rear valance with bracing interference. My 73 doesn't have that type of bracing that I could see. I would like to have more rubber in the back because of the extra power but not so much to kill the handling. Oh, with regards to the longer pitman arm. I have a $$ original TA box and original TA fast arm but it won't fit with a big block and TTI 1 7/8 headers which is what I will be using. I also have 1 or 2 cop oem firm boxes but what I am considering is Borgesons new Mopar power steering box.

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Help me choose springs, tires, and wheels???
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2012 - 12:34:18 PM »
I would recommend this kit: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HSS-80111/

You should have no trouble fitting 275's in the rear.  Are you looking for stock-looking wheels or aftermarket/low-profile?

 You may be able to get a deal on the kit if you buy from Hotchkiss directly , When I talked to them they offered me a better price on a kit . I never bought it though as I decided to sell the charger instead of putting more $$ into ti , not that I can sell the charger  :banghead:

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline 72bluNblu

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Re: Help me choose springs, tires, and wheels???
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2012 - 01:10:06 PM »
I run the CAP LCA's on my car, and have now for close to 30,000 miles. Haven't had any issues with them, and that's with 1.12" torsion bars, 11 3/4" brakes, and lots of really bad roads. I actually ran their UCA's for a while too, but they have a fairly wide "U" shaped design that interfered with the 17x9" rims, so I upgraded to the Hotchkis UCA's. While CAP's welding in general was a little sub par, all of the failures I heard about were on the UCA's. The design of the LCA's is pretty stout, and as long as you had someone that knows welding look at them I wouldn't worry about running them. After I inspected my UCA's I wasn't worried, the large majority of their stuff was just fine, they just had some quality control issues with a few pieces that got a lot of publicity. They've since been sold to QA1, although I haven't seen their UCA's and LCA's offered by QA1 yet.

The extra clearance is nice, especially on a lower car. I did have to remove my fender braces though, my wheels were hitting them at full travel. The CAP LCA's also work out to be about 8 pounds lighter than the stockers.

Offline brads70

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Re: Help me choose springs, tires, and wheels???
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2012 - 02:26:50 PM »
brads70- No I have not installed the Cap Lower control arms yet- Yea, I heard about bad welds on some of their products. I had a welder friend look at mine, he gave it a ok. I read the articles regarding the Doctor diff 1 inch relocation kit and the rear valance interference problem. The problem I saw was only on a 1970 rear valance with bracing interference. My 73 doesn't have that type of bracing that I could see. I would like to have more rubber in the back because of the extra power but not so much to kill the handling. Oh, with regards to the longer pitman arm. I have a $$ original TA box and original TA fast arm but it won't fit with a big block and TTI 1 7/8 headers which is what I will be using. I also have 1 or 2 cop oem firm boxes but what I am considering is Borgesons new Mopar power steering box.


LCA issues..  http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=77387.msg784575#msg784575
Your right TTI headers and the fast ratio arms do not play nice together ( they hit)
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline 72bluNblu

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Re: Help me choose springs, tires, and wheels???
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2012 - 02:52:39 PM »
LCA issues..  http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=77387.msg784575#msg784575


Huh, guess I missed that one. Haven't had any issues with mine. Seems like it would have been a whole lot easier to just move the sway bar tab and weld it back on. But that's just what I would do, I guess not everyone has ready access to a welder. Doesn't surprise me though, I've seen guys have issues with end links with stock set ups too, Ma Mopar wasn't exactly known for quality control either...

Offline brads70

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Re: Help me choose springs, tires, and wheels???
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2012 - 03:42:40 PM »
Huh, guess I missed that one. Haven't had any issues with mine. Seems like it would have been a whole lot easier to just move the sway bar tab and weld it back on. But that's just what I would do, I guess not everyone has ready access to a welder. Doesn't surprise me though, I've seen guys have issues with end links with stock set ups too, Ma Mopar wasn't exactly known for quality control either...

Ya my engine builder buddy has a saying.." Chrysler didn't have a scrap plie...it's all on the street"  By that he means he has seen lots of stuff like custom cam bearings for example to make a cam fit instead of scrapping the block or reworking it. Or bad core shifts in castings etc... not that the "others" didn't have their fair share of "issues" as well.
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline HP2

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Re: Help me choose springs, tires, and wheels???
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2012 - 04:10:31 PM »
If you go with a spring relocation in the back you can easily fit bigger tires, I know that guys have put 305's in the back with Dr Diffs kit. I seem to recall someone trying for 315's.

I've got 305s on the back of mine with the Mopar .75" relocation kit and I have room left on both sides of the tire. 315 wouldn't be hard to do either. XV has stuffed 335 into the stock Challenger wells once you eliminate the leaf spring interference.