Author Topic: Safest aftermarket complete suspension system  (Read 9763 times)

Offline brads70

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Re: Safest aftermarket complete suspension system
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2012 - 07:21:17 PM »
Yeah but you added the spacer and gusset that are welded onto the lower ball joint arm right? That is the stronger point I was referring to. How would these tie rod ends hold up compared to heim joints? Since ebooger says heim joints+street use=bad juju   :scared:
Since you used a solid spacer welded to the arm, can you still adjust the bump steer if you make any changes or would you have to redo that too?

Yes I made the spacer and gusset.( Mild steel) It is adjustable. I do most of my own welding ( I have a mig and a tig) but for this I took it to a certified welder just so I sleep better!  :lol:  He mentioned what type of filler rod he used but I forget now. I drilled and tapped the spacer  and steering arm for 5/8 fine thread screwed it all together with a bolt to hold it, tack welded it , removed the bolt, then finish welded it. Then ran the tap down it again as welding distorts the threads some.
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0




Offline cuda346pk

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Re: Safest aftermarket complete suspension system
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2012 - 09:25:08 PM »
Even better that the spacer is threaded, that would take most of the worry out of it. I guess this setup could be done with the Hotchkis setup too. Did you cover this mod in the C body spindle thread? Great work and considering your talent but you still took it to a certified welder I guess I really better do that too, not to mention I only have a small mig.
David - In Georgia

1972 'Cuda In-Violet 340 6 Pack 4 Speed 3.91 Sure Grip - Finally, after 27 years of waiting and dreaming it is real. Now the fun begins!

Offline brads70

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Re: Safest aftermarket complete suspension system
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2012 - 09:37:57 PM »
Even better that the spacer is threaded, that would take most of the worry out of it. I guess this setup could be done with the Hotchkis setup too. Did you cover this mod in the C body spindle thread? Great work and considering your talent but you still took it to a certified welder I guess I really better do that too, not to mention I only have a small mig.
Yep it's all in the C Body spindle thread.  Ya don't weld that with a mig!   :22yikes:  :faint:  :lol:
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline torqueaddict

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Re: Safest aftermarket complete suspension system
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2012 - 10:14:42 PM »
So basically only the systems that mimic the stock system are safe for street use is the feelings of many of the folks on here. I guess the question my curiosity really wants answered was what are the major differences with the xv level 2 stuff and the rms setup. Is the xv system worth the extra cas or are they both he same and not street worthy?
1972 Challenger  (O O [======R/T=] O O) 1970 clone

Offline cuda346pk

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Re: Safest aftermarket complete suspension system
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2012 - 10:49:16 PM »
Yep it's all in the C Body spindle thread.  Ya don't weld that with a mig!   :22yikes:  :faint:  :lol:
Cool, I am gonna have to reread that thread. Right, I will handle the minor welding and leave the live or die welds to the pros.
David - In Georgia

1972 'Cuda In-Violet 340 6 Pack 4 Speed 3.91 Sure Grip - Finally, after 27 years of waiting and dreaming it is real. Now the fun begins!

Offline HP2

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Re: Safest aftermarket complete suspension system
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2012 - 12:59:57 PM »
So basically only the systems that mimic the stock system are safe for street use is the feelings of many of the folks on here. I guess the question my curiosity really wants answered was what are the major differences with the xv level 2 stuff and the rms setup. Is the xv system worth the extra cas or are they both he same and not street worthy?

Obviously the stock set up has been proven for its durability.  IMO, others are also very street worthy, but may not necessary be a "build em and forget em" them scenario. If you enjoy inspecting your car's systems as a part of the ownership experience, aftermarket set ups will live a long life. If you don't want to work on the car any more than necessary, a stock configuration may be better suited to your needs.

I believe there is a case to be made for diminishing returns on investment for most of the suspension systems on the market today. By that I mean you can get a set up that is capable of being better than 96% of the drivers out there for under $3k. To get to 98% will cost you an additional $3k. To get to the 99% range will be another $6k on top off of that. None of these prices include wheels and tires either.

The specific differences between XV and RMS are subtle differences in layout, materials, and base components. FWIW, John Buscema-who runs XV and has extensive road race and high speed experience, look at the RMS package before starting XV and decided to come up with his own set up. Some specifics - RMS uses steel tube, XV uses aluminum. RMS uses Mustang based components, XV uses Corvette based components. RMS has come up with spring/shock combos based on engineering formulas and empirical observation, XV has spring/shock combos derived from enginering formulas and four post testing. RMS uses brakes from Wilwood, XV uses Brembo. RMS has a sterling reputation for service and support, XV regularly blows deals by being out of stock. RMS components tend to arrive inspected and ready for install, XV parts have had some sub-standard components slip through.

-For you, safety and maintanence seem to be high concerns. In these points the stock style set up may be best.
-RMS and XV are significantly lighter than stock. If weight is a concern, these may be better set ups.
-RMS and XV allow rapid spring rate changes. If these are important, the may be the better set ups.
-All are capable of producing road holding capability up to and in excess of 1g.
-Stock style set up and be put together for a quarter to half the cost of RMS and XV. If budget is a concern, stock may be the best set up.
-RMS and XV look very impressive. If ooo and ahhh at the drive in is important, these may be the best set ups.
-RMS and XV have geometry corrections built in, if you push the envelope in driving, they may be the best set up.

If you base street worthiness on Eburgs opinion of heim joints, cantilevers, and distance spans, then no, neither are acceptable street systems, and in that case, neither is Hotchkis. For that matter, I don't think my Honda would qualify either. If you base street worthiness on the ability to never need inspections, then no, neither qualify and the stock set up is only marginally better. If you base street worthiness on number of miles accumulated, there is no contest that the stock set up is where its at. As I originally said, the best set up is the one that serves your peace of mind, meets you budget requirements, is capable of meeting your driving capabilities, produces predictable and linear performance, meets any rule requirements you may run into, makes you feel good about your car, impresses your friends, or any other of a hundred other intrinsic points that only you can know. Maybe you should list out all the pros and cons of the particulars your consider important with weight factors of each point and then you can see where they all fall. That tends to make decision much easier when laid out that way.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012 - 01:09:33 PM by HP2 »

Offline brads70

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Re: Safest aftermarket complete suspension system
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2012 - 02:13:45 PM »
Obviously the stock set up has been proven for its durability.  IMO, others are also very street worthy, but may not necessary be a "build em and forget em" them scenario. If you enjoy inspecting your car's systems as a part of the ownership experience, aftermarket set ups will live a long life. If you don't want to work on the car any more than necessary, a stock configuration may be better suited to your needs.

I believe there is a case to be made for diminishing returns on investment for most of the suspension systems on the market today. By that I mean you can get a set up that is capable of being better than 96% of the drivers out there for under $3k. To get to 98% will cost you an additional $3k. To get to the 99% range will be another $6k on top off of that. None of these prices include wheels and tires either.

The specific differences between XV and RMS are subtle differences in layout, materials, and base components. FWIW, John Buscema-who runs XV and has extensive road race and high speed experience, look at the RMS package before starting XV and decided to come up with his own set up. Some specifics - RMS uses steel tube, XV uses aluminum. RMS uses Mustang based components, XV uses Corvette based components. RMS has come up with spring/shock combos based on engineering formulas and empirical observation, XV has spring/shock combos derived from enginering formulas and four post testing. RMS uses brakes from Wilwood, XV uses Brembo. RMS has a sterling reputation for service and support, XV regularly blows deals by being out of stock. RMS components tend to arrive inspected and ready for install, XV parts have had some sub-standard components slip through.

-For you, safety and maintenance seem to be high concerns. In these points the stock style set up may be best.
-RMS and XV are significantly lighter than stock. If weight is a concern, these may be better set ups.
-RMS and XV allow rapid spring rate changes. If these are important, the may be the better set ups.
-All are capable of producing road holding capability up to and in excess of 1g.
-Stock style set up and be put together for a quarter to half the cost of RMS and XV. If budget is a concern, stock may be the best set up.
-RMS and XV look very impressive. If ooo and ahhh at the drive in is important, these may be the best set ups.
-RMS and XV have geometry corrections built in, if you push the envelope in driving, they may be the best set up.

If you base street worthiness on Eburgs opinion of heim joints, cantilevers, and distance spans, then no, neither are acceptable street systems, and in that case, neither is Hotchkis. For that matter, I don't think my Honda would qualify either. If you base street worthiness on the ability to never need inspections, then no, neither qualify and the stock set up is only marginally better. If you base street worthiness on number of miles accumulated, there is no contest that the stock set up is where its at. As I originally said, the best set up is the one that serves your peace of mind, meets you budget requirements, is capable of meeting your driving capabilities, produces predictable and linear performance, meets any rule requirements you may run into, makes you feel good about your car, impresses your friends, or any other of a hundred other intrinsic points that only you can know. Maybe you should list out all the pros and cons of the particulars your consider important with weight factors of each point and then you can see where they all fall. That tends to make decision much easier when laid out that way.

 :iagree:  Well said!  Budget is why I stuck with the stock set up and used parts from Firm Feel and Hotchkis and a few of my own idea's  rolled in for good measure. Also the challenge of building designing my own stuff to see if it could work as good or better than the people with big budgets spun my crank.  I've always had this thing against Corvettes?( I could never afford one)  To me is seemed any moron with money could have a fast well handling car. But to build something that's worth a fraction of what they spent and then go out and spank them..... well that has always been satisfying to me! That's what drove me to build my set up. Years ago I had this 81 Malibu and I routinely whooped Vettes  from stop light to stop light.  It felt real good hollering over at the next set of lights "Hey buddy I didn't know they put 6 cylinders in those"  :lol:
When I first bought my car I had fully planned on cutting off the front clip and building my own clip as I was convinced Mopars just sucked handling wise. Tony (HP2) convinced me otherwise and I was hooked on making it happen with the "stock" configuration. You CAN vastly improve the handling for 3K or under on these cars!  I did it.
My other thought was down the road...long down the road after I'm dead ( as I have no plans to sell my car EVER) I think the cars that are left that can be put back to stock with simple bolts on's might be worth more than the "molested" ones?  :dunno:   My kids will figure that one out! :grinyes:
 :2cents:
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012 - 02:31:41 PM by brads70 »
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline Travis72

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Re: Safest aftermarket complete suspension system
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2012 - 01:27:59 PM »
I believe there is a case to be made for diminishing returns on investment for most of the suspension systems on the market today. By that I mean you can get a set up that is capable of being better than 96% of the drivers out there for under $3k. To get to 98% will cost you an additional $3k. To get to the 99% range will be another $6k on top off of that. None of these prices include wheels and tires either.


Very well said HP2!!!  Great post.  As opposed to even 10 years ago there are now many performance components available for the stock suspension that will provide great performance.

Travis
72 Cuda
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012 - 08:19:29 PM by Travis72 »

Offline 1of1

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Re: Safest aftermarket complete suspension system
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2012 - 02:44:39 PM »
This is what I am useing on my Hemi car that I am building...Takes the guess work out of things.....
1970 Cuda 383/335hp/4sp/V02
2006 FordGT40 Black Naked

Offline torqueaddict

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Re: Safest aftermarket complete suspension system
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2012 - 06:51:00 PM »
Obviously the stock set up has been proven for its durability.  IMO, others are also very street worthy, but may not necessary be a "build em and forget em" them scenario. If you enjoy inspecting your car's systems as a part of the ownership experience, aftermarket set ups will live a long life. If you don't want to work on the car any more than necessary, a stock configuration may be better suited to your needs.

I believe there is a case to be made for diminishing returns on investment for most of the suspension systems on the market today. By that I mean you can get a set up that is capable of being better than 96% of the drivers out there for under $3k. To get to 98% will cost you an additional $3k. To get to the 99% range will be another $6k on top off of that. None of these prices include wheels and tires either.

The specific differences between XV and RMS are subtle differences in layout, materials, and base components. FWIW, John Buscema-who runs XV and has extensive road race and high speed experience, look at the RMS package before starting XV and decided to come up with his own set up. Some specifics - RMS uses steel tube, XV uses aluminum. RMS uses Mustang based components, XV uses Corvette based components. RMS has come up with spring/shock combos based on engineering formulas and empirical observation, XV has spring/shock combos derived from enginering formulas and four post testing. RMS uses brakes from Wilwood, XV uses Brembo. RMS has a sterling reputation for service and support, XV regularly blows deals by being out of stock. RMS components tend to arrive inspected and ready for install, XV parts have had some sub-standard components slip through.

-For you, safety and maintanence seem to be high concerns. In these points the stock style set up may be best.
-RMS and XV are significantly lighter than stock. If weight is a concern, these may be better set ups.
-RMS and XV allow rapid spring rate changes. If these are important, the may be the better set ups.
-All are capable of producing road holding capability up to and in excess of 1g.
-Stock style set up and be put together for a quarter to half the cost of RMS and XV. If budget is a concern, stock may be the best set up.
-RMS and XV look very impressive. If ooo and ahhh at the drive in is important, these may be the best set ups.
-RMS and XV have geometry corrections built in, if you push the envelope in driving, they may be the best set up.

If you base street worthiness on Eburgs opinion of heim joints, cantilevers, and distance spans, then no, neither are acceptable street systems, and in that case, neither is Hotchkis. For that matter, I don't think my Honda would qualify either. If you base street worthiness on the ability to never need inspections, then no, neither qualify and the stock set up is only marginally better. If you base street worthiness on number of miles accumulated, there is no contest that the stock set up is where its at. As I originally said, the best set up is the one that serves your peace of mind, meets you budget requirements, is capable of meeting your driving capabilities, produces predictable and linear performance, meets any rule requirements you may run into, makes you feel good about your car, impresses your friends, or any other of a hundred other intrinsic points that only you can know. Maybe you should list out all the pros and cons of the particulars your consider important with weight factors of each point and then you can see where they all fall. That tends to make decision much easier when laid out that way.





Thanks for the insight, it was really informative. I'm still a little stumped on whats best for me. I am guessing what engine you have really has nothing to do with it huh? Decisions decisions decisions!!
1972 Challenger  (O O [======R/T=] O O) 1970 clone

Offline HP2

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Re: Safest aftermarket complete suspension system
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2012 - 09:34:48 AM »
Well said! 
Very well said HP2!!! 

Thanks Guys.  Despite all the readily available stuff these days, there is still a lot of voodoo percention about suspensions that I think open discussion to educate people about things goes a long way. Heck, at one point none of us knew engines either and I knwo I still learn new thigns regularly.

This is what I am useing on my Hemi car that I am building...Takes the guess work out of things

Yes it does, however it misses the point that torqueaddict is trying to get at, and that is will heim jointed suspensions be safe and last a long time in street applications. Also, unless their design has changed, I'd encourage you to purchase the additional cost reinforcement kit offered by Magnumforce to prevent any future troubles with the loading your shock towers will see with that system.

However, you bring up a good point. Often times the percieved performance increase of aftermarket suspension isn't so much that they have superior geometry and better range of motion (althought they somewhat do) so much as they have engineers and designers specifying what spring and shock rates should be applied to any particular vehicle combination. This takes the hit or miss guesswork of a layman putting together a compatible suspension under their car. Ultimately the applied rates at the tires that impact grip and feel can be duplicated by nearly any system, so long as you get those rates are correctly defined and correctly dampened.

Thanks for the insight, it was really informative. I'm still a little stumped on whats best for me. I am guessing what engine you have really has nothing to do with it huh? Decisions decisions decisions!!

Yes, ultimately it's your decision but if we can supply any info along the way, just ask. imincarn8, who is a member here, had the same sort of dilemma when choosing his suspension. We talked it over several times on the forum and in email. Ultimately he chose the AlterK and has loved it. You might pm him to see if he has any insight he can share.

The engine power levels are only marginally important, but big block vs small block is relevent because it impacts the choice of spring rates required for balance. This is where the stock system has limitations. If you are really going to push the limits of performance on the track in a sanctioned event and are using a big block, you are going to be limited to the 400# wheel rate of the biggest possible torsion bar you can find. By contrast, the coil over suspension have a choice of spring rates from 200 to 1600 pounds (wheel rates of 100-800#, but this is geometry dependant) for only around $50-80 each. This is one reason why a coil over suspension can be a big benefit to racing because springs are inexpensive, easy to find, and easy to change.

Offline 1of1

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Re: Safest aftermarket complete suspension system
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2012 - 08:09:18 PM »


Yes it does, however it misses the point that torqueaddict is trying to get at, and that is will heim jointed suspensions be safe and last a long time in street applications. Also, unless their design has changed, I'd encourage you to purchase the additional cost reinforcement kit offered by Magnumforce to prevent any future troubles with the loading your shock towers will see with that system.


What problemss do or have you seen on the shock tower stress with the Magnum system...The brace requires a mount weld in the engine compartment and I am trying to not do that?
1970 Cuda 383/335hp/4sp/V02
2006 FordGT40 Black Naked

Offline HP2

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Re: Safest aftermarket complete suspension system
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2012 - 10:47:39 AM »
The shock towers were not designed to sustain heavy suspension loads. With the torsion bar system, the suspension loads of hitting a pot hole are transmitted through the lower control arm pivot and the torsion bar anchor, the load is divided up among multiple locations. With a coil over the load is concentrated into a single device, the coil over, which is transmitting all that load into the shock mount area.

Continual loading of this area can cause the inner fender assembly to bend in towards the engine. This will cause panel gaps to change over time and potentially interfere with each other as the struture deforms. Now, with that said, I've only seen this in competition cars that were pounding the front suspension pretty regularly via wheelstands. But if you look at this abuse as an accelleration of street wear, that means a race car that starts bending in a couple of seasons may translate into a street car that starts bending 5, 7, 10 years later, maybe. That part I do not know. If all you do it drive to the show and shine, the occasional parade, are general pretty gentle with your cars, and you tend to turn over ownership of vehicles over every 3-5 year, you may never have a problem. However, if you push it hard or race it occasionally, you may see changes over time that coudl potnetially damage panels at the worst of chip a paint job at the least.