Hotchkis UCA heim joint failure

[72bluNblu]

So while I was working on putting my suspension back together (long story, I've been super lucky as of late), I notice that the drivers front heim joint doesn't look right. Ok, maybe some grease/ dirt, no biggie, clean it up and move on.

WRONG.

The shoulder of the heim is fractured along the ball. 

Ok, so they're steel on steel, it's been a couple years, and I installed them without little grease boots cause, hey, they didn't come with them right?  Anyway, I'm not super happy. So I go look at some heim joints. Holy cow are there a lot of differences. High misalignment, chromo, carbon, lined, unlined, different lengths etc. I figured I was good knowing they were 5/8".

Alright, call Hotchkis. They'll know. WRONG. "Michael" tells me they're a 5/8 male heim joint. Ok, so what's the misalignment number? "I don't know, all it says is 5/8 male heim joint. That's how we get them. Would you like to order some?" 

Wow. Can't even get me a part number or description beyond "5/8 male heim joint". I tell him thanks and hang up. I mean, nothing?! Website says high misalignment, but no specs.   

So, if anyone knows the tech specs for the heim joints on the Hotchkis UCA's, let me know. I'm inclined not to use the ones that they're  going to sell me. I'll post pics later, I'm having computer issues as well. When it rains it pours.

***Edit***

Just so you guys know, it wasn't a "couple" years. I bought them that far back, but they've only been on the car since last September. 11 months, ~7,300 miles.

[cuda346pk]

  please post pics. I am planning the Hotchkis TVS this winter.

[GoodysGotaCuda]

Have any pictures?  Believe it or not "5/8" male heim" is actually pretty accurate. That's how they are sold and are pretty standard. The spacers you can will go into the new heim, making the "misalignment number" kinda irrelevant.

Heims are actually not too complicated and very well traveled within the Jeep community, that's just how I relate to them. If it's something that puts up to the abuse of 37+ inch tires, dirt, dust, mud, high vibration, etc, it'll hold up on a street car!

The spacers can get a little screwy, but the spacers alter how many degrees of movement the heim will have when bolted in. The first thing when looking at spacers is the heim inside diameter (which you noted as 5/8") then the diameter of the bolt you are adapting to, probably 1/2". The next measurement you are concerned about is the width of the spacers when placed in the heim, so that it fits within the mounting tabs.

However, something line an upper control arm will only have vertical movement and doesn't need very much misalignment. Likely you have some sort of spacers already, which can be reused on the replacement 5/8" heim you buy!

The heim will come something like this, then you put your spacers back into it. This one is chromoly with a kevlar insert.



http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/XM-10-58-CrMo-rod-end-w-kevlar-liner_p_1420.html


Be sure it's actually cracked and not just the insert you are looking at, like pictured. Most are not "steel on steel". There is usually a teflon, PTFE, kevlar, etc insert that lubricates the uniball and extends service life.

[Chryco Psycho]

No surprise , why race parts don't nessissarily work better on the street !!
 Ehrenberg has a whole article on the Alter K Tion swap & why he feel it is not road worthy , Heim joints have there place but do not replace the simplicity & shock absorbtion of tie rod ends & rubber bushings . It is great that you found it before you had a failure

[72bluNblu]

Have any pictures?  Believe it or not "5/8" male heim" is actually pretty accurate. That's how they are sold and are pretty standard. The spacers you can will go into the new heim, making the "misalignment number" kinda irrelevant.

Yes, 90+% of them are standard and most people just buy them off the shelf. However, that's NOT all that's out there. Believe me, as a former aerospace engineer, that there are plenty of
heims out there that are not "off the shelf". And since Hotchkis did such a great job talking up their parts, I wanted to find out what they were up to.

Heims are actually not too complicated and very well traveled within the Jeep community, that's just how I relate to them. If it's something that puts up to the abuse of 37+ inch tires, dirt, dust, mud, high vibration, etc, it'll hold up on a street car!

You'd think that, but this one didn't.

The spacers can get a little screwy, but the spacers alter how many degrees of movement the heim will have when bolted in. The first thing when looking at spacers is the heim inside diameter (which you noted as 5/8") then the diameter of the bolt you are adapting to, probably 1/2". The next measurement you are concerned about is the width of the spacers when placed in the heim, so that it fits within the mounting tabs.

Actually the inside diameter is not what 5/8" refers to. That's actually the diameter of the male threads, in this case 5/8-18. Not sure what the internal diameter is yet, although it is adapted down to 1/2". 

However, something line an upper control arm will only have vertical movement and doesn't need very much misalignment. Likely you have some sort of spacers already, which can be reused on the replacement 5/8" heim you buy!

The heim will come something like this, then you put your spacers back into it. This one is chromoly with a kevlar insert.



http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/XM-10-58-CrMo-rod-end-w-kevlar-liner_p_1420.html

Seems like most of the misalignment is taken car of by the spacers. But, the Hotckis arms are not perpendicular to their mounts, so there is more than just vertical movement.

Be sure it's actually cracked and not just the insert you are looking at, like pictured. Most are not "steel on steel". There is usually a teflon, PTFE, kevlar, etc insert that lubricates the uniball and extends service life.

Hotchkis claims they are actually steel on steel. And I don't see any insert.


Working on pictures. Hard to get something that actually shows the issue.

[72bluNblu]

Alright, here's a picture. I'll try to get a better one when I have better light, with all the bare metal its hard to get a good picture with the flash. Doesn't look to me like its an insert, seems to have a jagged edge that looks like metal failure. Also, no visible inserts on any of the other inserts either, easier to tell on the ones that haven't failed. Can't see it in the picture, but there's another failed section on the bottom. It's too far into the bracket to get a decent picture of it though, at least with the flash.

At this point I'm just going to take it all apart, I won't get anything I order until next week anyway. Once its apart I can just measure everything. I would have thought it would have been easier just to ask Hotchkis, but I guess not. It appears they're just standard heims with misalignment spacers to make them "high misalignment" heims as Hotchkis claims.

[Chryco Psycho]

Not a failure of the outer loop but the inner lip that retains the ball , looks to mee like it is pulling it off center . Not good

[BIGSHCLUNK]

No surprise , why race parts don't nessissarily work better on the street !!
 Ehrenberg has a whole article on the Alter K Tion swap & why he feel it is not road worthy , Heim joints have there place but do not replace the simplicity & shock absorbtion of tie rod ends & rubber bushings . It is great that you found it before you had a failure

I was just reading about this myself. And why "track stuff" isnt always good "street stuff". Yikes that could have been a disasterous situation if some would have let go on the HWY or something. Hope you can getb it worked out.

[72bluNblu]

Not a failure of the outer loop but the inner lip that retains the ball , looks to mee like it is pulling it off center . Not good

Yeah, not a good thing. Not exactly sure why, but the next set will be some kind of lined joint (ptfe/kevlar etc) and will have the seals installed over the top. This thing sees too much dirt and road grime to not have those seals. And yeah, the arms are not perpendicular to the mounting bolts, there's some angle there. Still, not so much that it should do this.

I was just reading about this myself. And why "track stuff" isnt always good "street stuff". Yikes that could have been a disasterous situation if some would have let go on the HWY or something. Hope you can getb it worked out.

I'm not sold on those articles. I mean, yes, there is a point to be made there. But, if you think the factory had the best answer, well, don't kid yourself. Especially since you're now talking about 40+ year old parts in some cases.  I think the gentleman that wrote those articles is slanted toward restoration. Which is fine, but he doesn't have an unbiased opinion. You do have to keep in mind though that most aftermarket parts do not have factory lifespans. I mean, what do you do? Drive them completely undersprung, with crappy brakes and too much horsepower, and just hope you don't get clobbered by some moron texting? Or, just trailer them to shows? Sorry, that's lame. I drive my car, so it has to stop and handle better than it did 40 years ago because it has to "compete" with new cars on the road. Which means not plowing into somebody every time someone spills a latte.

Although, I do have to say I'm a little disappointed with Hotchkis on this one. I checked the paperwork I got when I had the car re-aligned, looks like they weren't even on the car as long as I'd thought. Little over 7k miles, they've only been on car about 11 months. 

[brads70]

That's a bummer!  I'll have to keep an eye on mine. When I first intalled them I remember thinking these do not look like real high quality rod ends? They were somewhat loose and didn't have a liner. I used them anyway but will replace them with quality teflon lined ones down the road. The teflon lined ones prevent clicking that regular heim ends get when they wear.

[spamtank]

Alright, here's a picture. I'll try to get a better one when I have better light, with all the bare metal its hard to get a good picture with the flash.  ...   It's too far into the bracket to get a decent picture of it though, at least with the flash.

Try holding a piece of white paper over the flash.  It will diffuse the light, and reduce reflections.  Makes a world of difference, especially with closeups.

You might also try a separate flashlight illuminating the area of interest if it is too far back for the flash to reach.

[brads70]

From your picture it looks like the seal has popped out? and the lube has come out, causing the squeaking?   I don't think it is a dangereous situation... just a anoying one?

[72bluNblu]

From your picture it looks like the seal has popped out? and the lube has come out, causing the squeaking?   I don't think it is a dangereous situation... just a anoying one?

Hotchkis has said in the past these are steel on steel, so, no liner or seal. I'm going to pull it and see what Ive got, it's hard to get a good look at them on the car.

I'll get pictures and measurements up.

[72bluNblu]

Ok, so I pulled the heim off of the car.

On closer inspection, what I was seeing is in fact a seal that has failed and pulled out of the heim and not the heim itself. What I wasn't seeing is the HUGE groove worn in the ball. Guess I know what was squeaking! The joint is pretty loose as well, clicks back and forth pretty easily. Needless to say its high time, I'm going to have to replace all of them after ~7,300 miles. Not impressed. 

For those that want to know, here are the measurements of the heim.

Thread diameter and pitch: 5/8"-18 RH male
Center bore: .625"
Thread length: 1.625"
Head diameter: 1.5"
Head width: .75"

Looks like the standard stuff is either 16 or 26 degrees misalignment for this. Not sure which one it is without comparing them side-by-side, I'd guess the 26* stuff. Misalignment spacers that came with the UCA's should take care of the rest.

Here's the pictures of the heim. Grey primer is how I marked the heim, so that's the paint your seeing.

No lining visible on this side


Seal side




But here's the REALLY interesting part. As best as I can measure it, this groove is over .018" deep.

[spamtank]

Here's the pictures of the heim. Grey primer is how I marked the heim, so that's the paint your seeing.

But here's the REALLY interesting part. As best as I can measure it, this groove is over .018" deep.

That's a deep groove.  That would cause some clicking.

You need a zerk on your heim....  Sounds kinda kinky.