Hotchkis UCA heim joint failure

Author Topic: Hotchkis UCA heim joint failure  (Read 15739 times)

Offline 72bluNblu

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Re: Hotchkis UCA heim joint failure
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2012 - 04:55:56 PM »
That's a deep groove.  That would cause some clicking.

You need a zerk on your heim....  Sounds kinda kinky.  :naughty:   :roflsmiley:


Zerk fittings on heim joints weaken the heim significantly. Unlike tie rod ends or ball joints, there's very little material to place a zerk fitting. And, unlike tie rod ends or ball joints, there's pretty much no part of a heim joint that isn't under load at all times. I've seen what you're talking about, but usually they're only used in steering or linkage applications, not high load situations.

It will go back together with some seals like these



Which should have been included in the first place for street applications.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012 - 05:00:57 PM by 72bluNblu »




Offline bad440

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Re: Hotchkis UCA heim joint failure
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2012 - 06:47:55 PM »
Check the latest issue of Mopar Action, a retired Chrysler engineer approved of Ehrenberg"s response to these aftermarker front ends. Nuff said!
Sudbury, Ontario, Canada

Offline 72bluNblu

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Re: Hotchkis UCA heim joint failure
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2012 - 08:09:04 PM »
Check the latest issue of Mopar Action, a retired Chrysler engineer approved of Ehrenberg"s response to these aftermarker front ends. Nuff said!


Nuff said? Not really. It's not that simple. Ehrenberg makes some good points, especially about the welded connections. Anytime you introduce welds, you introduce a potential failure point. Which is why there are very few welds in any of the factory parts. They can fail too, but when they do it usually involves bending and warping, not catastrophic failure like when a weld lets go.

But Ma mopar got it WRONG in a lot of ways too. The factory spring rate is horrendous. So, you upgrade your torsion bars to keep from bottoming everything out and wallowing through corners. Well, in many cases that can DOUBLE the spring rate. Do you think that the stock parts were designed for that? No. Nor were they designed for modern tire compounds and widths. I run a 275/40/17 tire on all 4 corners. I doubt that was in the factory calculations. There's a few members over on A-bodies that have had their torsion bar anchors rip right out of the crossmember when the factory welds failed.

My point is, some aftermarket parts are inevitable. And, for the most part, I've done what Ehrenberg himself suggests. But, obviously, there's something up with Hotchkis' heim joints.

This is a link to a thread over on Moparts regarding Ehrenberg's comments in Mopar Action.

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=7195765&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1

And this is a direct quote, from Ehrenberg himself, from that thread. Follow the link and scroll down, he posted quite a bit of info himself. Easy to find, his first post is all in bold.

Quote

For my dime, upgrades to the basic T-bar system re the way to go. Firm Feel, XV’s level one, and even Hotchkis have parts and packages that get the job done, although Hotchkis’ swapping (giving up) brake anti-dive* for more camber gain doesn’t thrill me either.


No mention of the heim joints. I don't think there's anything wrong with the rest of the control arm, even if he doesn't like the lack of anti-dive, which was designed into the stock stuff because they also ran the same E-body suspension on 5,000+ lb wagons with teeny little torsion bars. The weak link is obviously the heim, and its too bad that Hotchkis didn't decide to go with some kind of bushed attachement (or higher quality heim joints!!!). I'm honestly not sure why these wore out so quickly, obviously the heim is going to be a part that wears out, but 7,300 miles is ridiculous. Maybe I'll hear back from Hotchkis about the specs of the heims they send out... ::)

As it stands, my plan is to replace the supplied heims with known parts, ie, heavy duty PFTE lined chromoly heims, and run them with seals-it seals. I expect I'll see a lot more mileage out of those. But, if not, I may have to go another direction. I don't feel like changing all of the heims every year, and I'm not going to stop driving my car as my daily either. And that means driving it in the rain, snow, dirt, etc. If I can't get the heims to last longer than that in those conditions, then a change may be in order. But that's real world testing, which I have to agree with Ehrenberg, is lacking in the aftermarket parts world.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012 - 08:16:05 PM by 72bluNblu »

Offline ChallengerHK

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Re: Hotchkis UCA heim joint failure
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2012 - 10:32:03 PM »
But, if not, I may have to go another direction.

Any idea what that would be? I'm starting to feel kind of leary about the Hotchkis setup just from reading this.


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Offline brads70

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Re: Hotchkis UCA heim joint failure
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2012 - 01:07:21 AM »
If you turn the ball around is there a groove on that side too? I'm thinking that is a grease groove ( and no grease?)
 Like I said before I didn't think these heim joints are real quality pieces. Not the worst ... but not the best either.
I'd look at something like these? ASM-10T
http://aurora.thomasnet.com/viewitems/browse-all-products-aircraft-male-rod-ends/-sae-as81935-1-right-hand-sae-as81935-1-left-hand-?&bc=100|1064|1065|1077
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline 72bluNblu

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Re: Hotchkis UCA heim joint failure
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2012 - 04:27:50 AM »
Any idea what that would be? I'm starting to feel kind of leary about the Hotchkis setup just from reading this.


Honestly, no. Hotchkis is the only manufacturer that redoes the front anchor to improve camber gain (at the expense of anti-dive, but with 1.12" torsion bars that's not something I need). Firm Feel, Magnumforce, and a few others make tubular uppers with bushed ends, so that may be an option.

I just installed a set of offset bushings in the stock UCA's on my Duster. I was just going the "cheap" route, since I've got too many projects at the moment, but I'm impressed with the results. I just did a rough alignment myself, but it drives straight, turns well, doesn't pull, and appears to have a good amount of negative camber as it sits (at least -.5*, I can see the angle on the wheels). So when that goes to the alignment shop I'll figure out exactly where I'm at, I was waiting for the new torsion bars to settle out a little first to dial in the ride height. If I can get decent numbers with the stock arms and offset bushings, that may be an option too. The Duster is going to get a manual steering box when I swap the engine, so I don't need as much caster. Really, the biggest reason to run tubular arms is to get the alignment to modern specs at a decent ride height. I'm sure they flex less, and they're probably lighter too. But, those are things that show up when you start comparing lap times, not nearly so much when you're street driving. I'm not saying they aren't an improvement, they definitely are. But I'm becoming less convinced that they're worth the trade off on daily drivers, where you're seeing more mileage and worse conditions than most weekend cruisers.

If you turn the ball around is there a groove on that side too? I'm thinking that is a grease groove ( and no grease?)


No, its wear. There is another groove, but its 180* out on the same side as this one and not as deep. Hard to show it in the pictures, but there's nothing uniform about the grooves, they aren't machined, they're worn in. Not coincidentally, they grooves are the same length as the shoulder of the heim joint between the failed seals, and there's a matching worn section on the inside of the heim. When you rotate the ball so the grooves are back inline with the shoulder of the heim (like they were on the car), you can feel the ball catching on the inside of the heim instead of rotating smoothly. In fact, the seals are really only pulled out on the very ends where they overlap the damage on the ball. I almost wonder if the seals were pulled out by the damaged ball, instead of the seals popping out and causing the damage to the ball.

I'll post more pictures of the heim tomorrow. I've got some other things to take care of, but I'm interested to see what the other 3 heims look like too. I didn't notice the seals popping out on the others, so maybe this one was defective somehow.

I'm looking at these as replacements. Seem like a step up, but still readily available...



http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HAL-PCMR10T/

Brand      QA1 Precision Products
Manufacturer's Part Number      PCMR10T
Part Type      Rod Ends
Product Line      QA1 PCM Series Rod Ends
Summit Racing Part Number      HAL-PCMR10T
UPC      806990003119
 
Rod End Thread Size      5/8-18 RH in.
Rod End Attachment      Male threads
Rod End Construction      2-piece
Rod End Style      PTFE lined
Jam Nut Included      No
Thread Length      1.625 in.
Rod End Head Bore Size      0.625 in.
Rod End Head Diameter      1.500 in.
Rod End Head Width      0.750 in.
Grease Fitting      No
Rod End Centerline Length      2.625 in.
Heat-Treated      Yes
Rod End Ball Width (in)      0.750 in.
Rod End Misalign Angle (degrees)      26 degrees
Rod End Static Load Capacity (lbs)      15,200 lbs.
Rod End Material      Chromoly
Rod End Finish      Black oxide
Quantity      Sold individually.
 
QA1 PCM Series rod ends feature a 2-piece, chromoly steel design and a heat-treated, black oxide coated body for corrosion resistance. The ball is heat-treated as well with a precision-ground, hard chrome plated finish. QA1 PCM Series rod ends are built to last.


Offline brads70

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Re: Hotchkis UCA heim joint failure
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2012 - 09:35:59 AM »
I used the QA1 rod ends on my homemade strut rods ( also with seals-it seals)  but the aluminum version. We use they on circle track cars with great results. They are tough!
They should work good for you! Good pick!
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline Dan@Hotchkis

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Re: Hotchkis UCA heim joint failure
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2012 - 11:23:53 AM »
I saw this linked from another site and I'm sorry you had such an issue with your control arms and Customer service.  It seems through the help of everyone on this site that you've got most of your needs taken care of. 
However, when I've seen wear like this in the past, it is usually due to the heim being out of alignment when at ride height.  After you get everything re-installed, make sure that the heim is on its axis with the control arm at it's static ride height.  From the pictures you posted, it appears that the seal was riding in the misalignment sleeve "joint." or even jammed up against the bracket hardware; and that makes the failure seen here pretty much inevitable.  While we use the highest quality components, when improperly installed, anything is possible.  If there is anyway I can help you please let me know.  I'm an R&D and the Hotchkis Mopar guy, so if you have any questions you feel aren't being answered well by our newest sales guy, I'm here for you.

Offline _Russ_

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Re: Hotchkis UCA heim joint failure
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2012 - 03:58:16 PM »
I saw this linked from another site and I'm sorry you had such an issue with your control arms and Customer service.  It seems through the help of everyone on this site that you've got most of your needs taken care of. 
However, when I've seen wear like this in the past, it is usually due to the heim being out of alignment when at ride height.  After you get everything re-installed, make sure that the heim is on its axis with the control arm at it's static ride height.  From the pictures you posted, it appears that the seal was riding in the misalignment sleeve "joint." or even jammed up against the bracket hardware; and that makes the failure seen here pretty much inevitable.  While we use the highest quality components, when improperly installed, anything is possible.  If there is anyway I can help you please let me know.  I'm an R&D and the Hotchkis Mopar guy, so if you have any questions you feel aren't being answered well by our newest sales guy, I'm here for you.

Welcome to the forum Dan.  :cheers:

Offline 72bluNblu

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Re: Hotchkis UCA heim joint failure
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2012 - 08:36:08 PM »
I saw this linked from another site and I'm sorry you had such an issue with your control arms and Customer service.  It seems through the help of everyone on this site that you've got most of your needs taken care of. 
However, when I've seen wear like this in the past, it is usually due to the heim being out of alignment when at ride height.  After you get everything re-installed, make sure that the heim is on its axis with the control arm at it's static ride height.  From the pictures you posted, it appears that the seal was riding in the misalignment sleeve "joint." or even jammed up against the bracket hardware; and that makes the failure seen here pretty much inevitable.  While we use the highest quality components, when improperly installed, anything is possible.  If there is anyway I can help you please let me know.  I'm an R&D and the Hotchkis Mopar guy, so if you have any questions you feel aren't being answered well by our newest sales guy, I'm here for you.


Well, thanks for tuning in Dan.

Fortunately, I think I have been able to figure out what needs to be done.

And of course, I assumed that I would be blamed for improper installation. Which is why I didn't even bother going down the road of trying to get the parts replaced.

Here are some more relevant pictures of the installed UCA before I took it apart. This is obviously not at ride height, this is at full extension.





These are pictures from the instructions for installing the arms.






Now, what exactly is improperly installed? The misalignment spacer is in the correct position. So are the additional spacers needed. In fact, I even needed the same number of spacers as on the car in the instructions. The heim is against the nut of the retaining cage in the forward mount (where the failed heim was located), just as it is in the instructions.

Alignment was set professionally, -.75 camber, almost +5 caster, 1/16" toe in. I'll see if I can find the print out with the exact numbers, but they're well within range per the instructions. I run a touch less negative camber, my alignment guy doesn't like to go all the way out to -1 on cars that see as much street time as my Challenger. 

The seals were in no way riding on the nut for the bracket. This is front of the forward mount, so there's no misalignment spacer on that side (as per the instructions). There is definitely an amount of misalignment on the front heim, but that is due entirely to the amount of caster and the design of the arm. I suppose the clocking of the heim relative to the bracket could be altered slightly, but as you can see in the upper photo, the clocking of the heim is not extreme, and very similar to the installation instructions.

I'll take some more pictures of the passenger side, which is still assembled. That heim also shows wear, but not as much as the drivers side. I suspect it will have grooves as well though. Heck, I'll reinstall the driver's side. I'm sure it will be argued that its not in exactly the same spot, but since the front pivot isn't on a cam bolt, it should be pretty darn close as long as I set the jam nut in the same place and am close on the clocking of the heim. Since I marked the jam nut location to get my alignment right when I put the car back together, and the grooves in the heim do a great job of indicating where the heim was riding, it should be in the same spot.

I really don't care if Hotchkis replaces my heim joints. I never really expected them to, there's no way I can prove it was defective parts that caused this. I would like to know why mine failed, even if it really was somehow my fault for installing them "improperly", since I don't want to be doing this again. I'm honestly not sure how else I could have installed them though. All of the parts were installed in the proper locations, the alignment was set correctly. The clocking of the heim is really the only thing that could have been "improper", although again, I don't believe it was.

« Last Edit: August 19, 2012 - 08:49:21 PM by 72bluNblu »

Offline autoxcuda

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Re: Hotchkis UCA heim joint failure
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2012 - 01:41:57 AM »
72bluNblu, how many times and how often did you lube your heims?
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Offline BIGSHCLUNK

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Re: Hotchkis UCA heim joint failure
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2012 - 09:17:33 AM »
This continues to be a very intresting thread indeed. I have to upgrade to (insert type/brand here) one of these days. I'd be pizzed @ 7300 miles thats for sure.
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Offline Dan@Hotchkis

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Re: Hotchkis UCA heim joint failure
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2012 - 09:20:46 AM »
Well, thanks for tuning in Dan.

Fortunately, I think I have been able to figure out what needs to be done.

And of course, I assumed that I would be blamed for improper installation. Which is why I didn't even bother going down the road of trying to get the parts replaced.
...

I really don't care if Hotchkis replaces my heim joints. I never really expected them to, there's no way I can prove it was defective parts that caused this. I would like to know why mine failed, even if it really was somehow my fault for installing them "improperly", since I don't want to be doing this again. I'm honestly not sure how else I could have installed them though. All of the parts were installed in the proper locations, the alignment was set correctly. The clocking of the heim is really the only thing that could have been "improper", although again, I don't believe it was.

Didn't mean to sound accusatory or abrasive in any way, its difficult to determine the cause of these things some times, especially when we cannot inspect it ourselves.  While these parts are a wear and replace item, they typically last much longer and don't wear as yours did.  The biggest thing to take away is to make sure that everything is good at ride height, because when the components bind they will wear prematurely. 

Offline bigblue73

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Re: Hotchkis UCA heim joint failure
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2012 - 09:56:22 AM »
What exactly is ride height.  With a torsion bar suspension the ride height can be adjusted up and down and then caster and toe in can be adjusted accordingly.  Am I missing something?

Offline Dan@Hotchkis

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Re: Hotchkis UCA heim joint failure
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2012 - 11:24:47 AM »
What exactly is ride height.  With a torsion bar suspension the ride height can be adjusted up and down and then caster and toe in can be adjusted accordingly.  Am I missing something?

Weight of the vehicle on the tires.  When doing the alignment, first thing that should be done is setting the ride height.  I can't stress the importance of heim alignment for longevity. 

In regards to the original poster, and looking at the pictures again; I'm wondering if a rock or something got jammed up into where the teflon/kevlar seal is and made itself a home there?  From the pictures of the arm still installed, the forward heim doesn't look perfect, but it doesn't look terrible either.  Tough to say without looking at it first hand.