Author Topic: Front End Rebuild / Improvments  (Read 5412 times)

Offline CUDA JAS

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Front End Rebuild / Improvments
« on: November 11, 2012 - 06:41:10 PM »
So further to my earlier post, I have the car up on stands for the winter and I am about to embark on a long ovedue front end rebuild on my 74 Cuda (360 auto).

This is a street car, and I am looking to improve the ride and handeling. I am not looking to kill any cones or thrash it on a road course, just feel like I have some control going through corners, and probably balst through a few from time to time!!!   :bananasmi

Am I going a full on pro touring, no not yet, by maybe get there in the future.

My plan is to replace all the hard parts (duh) and use energy suspension poly bushings. I have factory sway bars for and aft.

Upgrade the tie rods to 11/16 units with a solid adjusters and fast ratio pitman arm (PST has a good deal on a kit).

I will likely leave the T-bars stock for now.

How about the strut bars, should I go adjustable, HD units or good stock units (which I have)? Not sure I understand the benefit of adjustable unitis.

Any other suggestions????

Thanks,

Jason

74 'cuda 360/727



Gearhead: car nut, automotive enthusiast, one who loves hot rods, muscle cars, hot trucks, burnin' rubber and neck snapping performance. 

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Offline dodj

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Re: Front End Rebuild / Improvments
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2012 - 08:20:47 PM »
I would go with moog offset upper control arm bushings. Not get the adjustable strut rods, and upgrade the t-bars when the budget allows.  :2cents:
Scott
1973 Challenger  440 4 spd 
2007.5 3500 6.7 Cummins Diesel, Anarchy tuned.
Good friends don't let friends do stupid things. ........alone.

Offline Changin Gears

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Re: Front End Rebuild / Improvments
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2012 - 09:49:59 PM »
I would go with moog offset upper control arm bushings. Not get the adjustable strut rods, and upgrade the t-bars when the budget allows.  :2cents:

I agree, with the addition of poly strut rod bushings, They don't twist, so they won't squeak, and control the front end during hard braking.


The goal never changes - Stop the 60' timer with your back tires

Offline drewcrane

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Re: Front End Rebuild / Improvments
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2012 - 08:34:23 AM »
If you are running headers with those fast ratio pitman/idler arms you will have to make some clearance ,

if you are running stock exhaust you should be ok but I have a clearance issue with those fast ratio arms and tti headers :2cents:

Offline HP2

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Re: Front End Rebuild / Improvments
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2012 - 11:45:02 AM »
I like poly, but some others don't. I prefer to use the PST polygraphite stuff and and not had issues with squeaks. I also have not had any issues with ill fitting lower control arms with them. I have heard of others using Energy  or Prothane have have had some fitment or squeaking issues. The fitting on the lower control arm is a function of the strut rod bushing, so make sure everything lines up correctly before locking down the torque.

I'd also agree with using the offset upper bushings instead of poly in the upper arms. The offset will allow you a greater range of caster adjustment, provided you install them the opposite of the instructions.  You can substitute the adjustable strut rods to gain a bit of caster, but, when you use these to offset the location of  the lower control arm, you can put it in a bind at greater travel. With proper install of the bushings, you don't "need" an adjustable strut rod, but it may help a bit

Personally wouldn't worry too much about going with 11/16 tie rods. The 9/16 units can withstand 5gs worth of loading before failure, so they really don't flex much at all.

Biggest improvement you can make for both ride and handling is good shocks. Not gas charged parts store units, not KYBs, but a good high end shock.  Like tire technology, shocks have improved tremendously over the last decade, never mind 20-40 year old stuff. If you're sticking with the stock t-bars with plans to step up in teh future,  this will help a lot.

Since you have the stock sway bars, upgrade to a 1.125 solid or 1.25 hollow front bar. These improve lateral stability significantly while turning. The stock front unit you have is pretty wimpy comapred to whats on the market today. The rear isn't so bad, but the adjustability of modern units is nice. Maybe down the road you can upgrade to one of those.

Alignment will be the final piece of the puzzle.  Radial tire tolerate a wider range of angles before they show unusual wear, which allows more aggressive settings. Once your machine is all back together, set the ride height you want and instruct the shop not to change it, then request positive caster of 3-5*, negative camber of .5-1* and total toe in  of .125 to .1875 of an inch.

You didn't mention it, but if  you don't have them now, the addition of subframe connectors actually benefits the suspension greatly. Reducing flex in the vehicle better allows the suspension to do its job without wasted energy. For that matter, the radiator core support bracing and inner fender supports also provide big gains in rigidity.

Offline PlumCraZRT

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Re: Front End Rebuild / Improvments
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2012 - 02:23:12 PM »
You didn't mention it, but if  you don't have them now, the addition of subframe connectors actually benefits the suspension greatly. Reducing flex in the vehicle better allows the suspension to do its job without wasted energy. For that matter, the radiator core support bracing and inner fender supports also provide big gains in rigidity.

As a mechanical/structural engineer, I can see how the inner fender supports help out a lot (along with strut tower bracing), but I find it a little hard to see how the radiator core support does a lot...  Is the problem there that the frame is flexing in shear, so stiffening the corners keeps the engine bay "square"?  It seems to me that the radiator would be a very stiff structural member (though not intended for it) and would prevent bending of the core support itself, but would not reinforce the corners (where the core support meets the frame).
mmmmm.... Mopar.... *drool*

Offline HP2

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Re: Front End Rebuild / Improvments
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2012 - 02:23:44 PM »
The core support brace performs more work than a strut rod brace in a mopar.  The radiator core support is only a thin piece of stamped steel with very little structural support compared to the inner fender structure. Putting heavy suspension loads into one side of the front suspension allows it to deflect and deform the core support. Tieing the two frame horns together creates a more rigid associated network of panels.

The best way to see how it moves was found on the XV site showing four post rig testing. However, they have deactivated the link and now charge for a DVD of the information. Now, they did not break down teh incremental improvements of each piece, but rather the entire package.

Offline CUDA JAS

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Re: Front End Rebuild / Improvments
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2012 - 10:55:21 AM »
Thanks for the input guys.

Based on the input I recived here an a few other sites, and my own research, here is what I am going to do.

First and formost, I am replacing all hard parts, ball joints, tie rod ends etc.

I am going to replace all the bushings (including sway bar links and bushings) with Energy Suspension poly bushings with the exception of the UCA bushngs, I am going with the Moog Offsets.

Given the tierods, pitman and idler arm are all origional, I am going to go with the PST sterring linkage kit and replace all of them (11/16th tierods, sloid adjusters, and high ratio pitman / idler).

I am also going to go with Firm Feel greasable LCA pins.

I am also going to fab up some all LCA reenforcement plates and possibly some subframe connectors.

I am also droping the rear end way down, new poly leafspring bushings, and lower the front down a bit.

Here is a pick of what I am starting with...


Jason
74 'cuda 360/727



Gearhead: car nut, automotive enthusiast, one who loves hot rods, muscle cars, hot trucks, burnin' rubber and neck snapping performance. 

Just call me a gearhead!

Offline GranCuda1970

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Re: Front End Rebuild / Improvments
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2012 - 11:13:30 AM »
Nice profile shot!!  :2thumbs:

Offline brads70

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Re: Front End Rebuild / Improvments
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2012 - 01:19:26 PM »
Sounds like a great plan!  :2thumbs:
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
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Offline challenger_affair

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Re: Front End Rebuild / Improvments
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2014 - 12:41:10 AM »
Thanks for the input guys.

Based on the input I recived here an a few other sites, and my own research, here is what I am going to do.

First and formost, I am replacing all hard parts, ball joints, tie rod ends etc.

I am going to replace all the bushings (including sway bar links and bushings) with Energy Suspension poly bushings with the exception of the UCA bushngs, I am going with the Moog Offsets.

Given the tierods, pitman and idler arm are all origional, I am going to go with the PST sterring linkage kit and replace all of them (11/16th tierods, sloid adjusters, and high ratio pitman / idler).

I am also going to go with Firm Feel greasable LCA pins.

I am also going to fab up some all LCA reenforcement plates and possibly some subframe connectors.

I am also droping the rear end way down, new poly leafspring bushings, and lower the front down a bit.

Here is a pick of what I am starting with...


Jason


This is a semi-old post, but you're describing a lot of the same things I'm considering now so I would be interested to hear you follow up on how your project went and what the results are.   :popcorn:
1970 Challenger 383 RT Auto Plum Crazy

Offline CUDA JAS

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Re: Front End Rebuild / Improvments
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2014 - 07:27:07 PM »
Sure no problem...My results were sort of mixed.

For starters, I have yet to drop down the rear end, I hope to do that this spring.

The overall ride of the poly bushings and 1 inch just suspension T-bars is noticeably different, that the stock worn out components. It is slightly harsh, but keep in ide I have stock type shocks.  I was happy with the overall feel.  Even my wife said she noticed a difference (in a good way).

The benefit of the offset UCA bushings is to max out the Castor numbers (or is it camber) and unfortunately I think I got screwed on my alignment. So, the car does not drive as nice as I'd like. 

I am also running manual steering with longer pitman arm, and that is not a great combo.  The longer pitman increases the turning effort, and the ratio is far to slow.

I am in the process of changing over to power steering, and getting the alignment sorted out and that should improve the overall feel, I hope.

Here is a link to my comments in anther post.  http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=94392.msg931446#msg931446

Jason
74 'cuda 360/727



Gearhead: car nut, automotive enthusiast, one who loves hot rods, muscle cars, hot trucks, burnin' rubber and neck snapping performance. 

Just call me a gearhead!

Offline dodj

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Re: Front End Rebuild / Improvments
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2014 - 11:07:53 PM »

The benefit of the offset UCA bushings is to max out the Castor numbers (or is it camber) and unfortunately I think I got screwed on my alignment. So, the car does not drive as nice as I'd like. 
Did you tell the alignment shop the camber, caster, and toe in numbers you wanted?
Scott
1973 Challenger  440 4 spd 
2007.5 3500 6.7 Cummins Diesel, Anarchy tuned.
Good friends don't let friends do stupid things. ........alone.

Offline CUDA JAS

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Re: Front End Rebuild / Improvments
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2014 - 04:57:13 PM »
Did you tell the alignment shop the camber, caster, and toe in numbers you wanted?

No not exactly.

He was supposed to be the muscle car guy.  We had a conversation about it and he assured me he knew how to make these old mopars work with new tires, so I said ok.

Turns out I should have been more specific...live and learn I guess.

Jason
74 'cuda 360/727



Gearhead: car nut, automotive enthusiast, one who loves hot rods, muscle cars, hot trucks, burnin' rubber and neck snapping performance. 

Just call me a gearhead!

Offline challenger_affair

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Re: Front End Rebuild / Improvments
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2014 - 01:57:02 AM »
Hey thanks for posting and the link to your other thread!  :2thumbs:

Do you have a sense of how much of a benefit the poly bushing provide over a stock type?  Or is it important to include when making the other upgrades? 

Did you make any of the frame upgrades?
1970 Challenger 383 RT Auto Plum Crazy