I don't understand people...

Author Topic: I don't understand people...  (Read 8436 times)

Offline GranCuda1970

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Re: I don't understand people...
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2012 - 02:24:11 AM »
I think it is funny the unions shot themselves in the foot!! Sad for the people working there that thier representation played russion roullete with thier jobs and livelyhoods.

http://www.redstate.com/2012/11/18/ironic-teamsters-called-for-secret-ballot-at-hostess-while-pushing-to-eliminate-secret-ballots/


Pssst!!  look at the Electoral map from this last election it mirrors a US Map of right to work states. Explains alot about current economy and politics in the US.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012 - 02:30:03 AM by GranCuda1970 »




Offline GranCuda1970

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Offline moparclown

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Re: I don't understand people...
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2012 - 07:15:22 AM »
People like to complain about the union element, but I've read Hostess had recently tripled CEO pay. Some had gone from 750K to about 2.5MIL.

I can't imagine how those poor paupers were scraping by on 750K...

Here is the answer,the fact is these people that run the company shouldn't be getting that kind of a raise when a company is failing and they were taught how in our schools and education facilities.

Offline 06Daytona

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Re: I don't understand people...
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2012 - 08:05:28 AM »
From what I've read, Hostess planned on closing the doors this year anyway. Closing because of the strike was a good way to deflect the blame from the mismanagement and over to the unions. Hostess didn't seem to do anything to put out a more health conscious product while parents were looking for healthier snacks to give their kids. If they had started making granola bars, low fat twinkies or something else like that then they may have been able to keep the doors open as long as the management stopped thinking that they needed another 300% raise or another bonus. If McDonalds hadn't changed their menu to include salads and chicken burgers and other healthier choices, while other fast food places had, then McDonalds would probably be in the same boat. It seems to be that way with quite a few businesses that won't evolve to meet the needs of the customer. I'm not a big fan of unions myself, and as much as I would like to blame the unions for all the economic problems, in this case I just can't. 
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Offline willhaven

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Re: I don't understand people...
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2012 - 06:20:07 PM »
From what I've read, Hostess planned on closing the doors this year anyway. Closing because of the strike was a good way to deflect the blame from the mismanagement and over to the unions. Hostess didn't seem to do anything to put out a more health conscious product while parents were looking for healthier snacks to give their kids. If they had started making granola bars, low fat twinkies or something else like that then they may have been able to keep the doors open as long as the management stopped thinking that they needed another 300% raise or another bonus. If McDonalds hadn't changed their menu to include salads and chicken burgers and other healthier choices, while other fast food places had, then McDonalds would probably be in the same boat. It seems to be that way with quite a few businesses that won't evolve to meet the needs of the customer. I'm not a big fan of unions myself, and as much as I would like to blame the unions for all the economic problems, in this case I just can't.
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Offline GranCuda1970

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Re: I don't understand people...
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2012 - 09:06:22 PM »
Fact is ....... A Company can survive without a Union but a Union cannot survive without a Company. We have seen time again and again the affects when the bloodsuckers suck thier Host dry just like Hostess sluuurrrrpp!!  Unions have been on the way out for a loooong time.  What are they 6% of the workforce now. Unions cannot compete with cheap foreign labor because they want higher and higher benefits every year making it impossible to compete with Countries like China. Unions will die best to let them go! You can protect employee and employers with a few simple laws. Unions have outlived thier usefullness.

Offline AARuFAST

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Re: I don't understand people...
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2012 - 10:09:36 PM »

 :iagree: Well said,
I know I will be flamed. That's ok. I guess that's the new American way. Somehow, it's all right for a bank or trust group to buy you out and rape you and kick you to the curb while making obscene profits, but it's not ok for someone to try and get decent standards of safety to work in and try and make a living for his family, while agreeing to less and less and less after 3 rounds of negotioations.. Meanwhile, the boss takes 17 million and splits. Yeah. ok. That's why I didn't want to get into that area.
I am a retired Teamster and have a great pension and benefits. Why because the company I worked for makes big bucks and shared the profits with the employee.

The CEO's of most company's get bonus shares in stock from the company, reap all the glory but the employee's get the shaft. Strip the pension and medical health plans.


In 2004, the makers of Twinkies first filed for bankruptcy, a five-year process that ranks among the longest such proceedings in U.S. history. The company continued to struggle financially, and now risks complete liquidation, as it cannot make payments on its $700 million line of credit, has $2 billion in unfunded pension obligations to retired employees, and owes $860 million in current debt.

Our members decided they were not going to take any more abuse from a company they have given so much to for so many years. They decided that they were not going to agree to another round of outrageous wage and benefit cuts and give up their pension only to see yet another management team fail and Wall Street vulture capitalists and ‘restructuring specialists’ walk away with untold millions of dollars.
All of out jobs are in Europe, Asia, South America.  America wants to live high on the hog and want high wages, pensions and health benefits.
Foreign cars flood the American market causing more American makers to eliminate the models, and eliminate jobs.
An we are to blame for buying foreign cars...  I never owned a foreign made car made in the USA and never wall.
I paid 15,000 for my home in 1968 it is now valued on the Real Estate marker at 380.ooo bull ****......Just the goverment jacking up the values every one or two years for more taxes.
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Offline Topcat

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Re: I don't understand people...
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2012 - 09:11:12 PM »
Pro or Con regarding Unions:

So many times I see hold outs that delay progress.

In the past, the Gov't has jumped in to stop the Hiatus.
It actually worked once before.
 
Right now the NHL is on one of the longest Union strikes in Pro Sports.
O.K. I agree;  all Pro Sports are over paid.

But what about all the vendors that support them?
They're left out in the cold. That's alot of jobs.
Mike, Fremont, CA.


Offline Benji

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Re: I don't understand people...
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2012 - 03:39:34 PM »
People like to complain about the union element, but I've read Hostess had recently tripled CEO pay. Some had gone from 750K to about 2.5MIL.

I can't imagine how those poor paupers were scraping by on 750K...

Nope, none of that happened. Do you think for one minute that if the CEO's pay from an ailing company that the unions were targeting went from $750,000 to $2.5 million just before they went belly up that ABC, CBS and NBC would fail to report it?  No way. Those communists would be on that like stick on manure.  It would be on the 6 o'clock news for three days straight as they raked the "greedy CEO" over the coals but they didn't because it is an internet fable.  The Teamsters Union had in their contract with Hostess that if two different Hostess products (like bread and pastries) went to the same place they had to go in two different trucks.  Either you play ball like the unions want you to play (by their rules only) or they will go on strike and destroy the company.

Benji

Offline HP_Cuda

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Re: I don't understand people...
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2012 - 03:58:20 PM »
What I like about business in it's purest form is there is no spin involved.

Here is the only statement you need to focus on as to why they went out of biz:

"Hostess cannot make payments on its $700 million line of credit, has $2 billion in unfunded pension obligations to retired employees, and owes $860 million in current debt."

If you cannot pay you way you go out of business. Now how it got here by mismanagement, hedge funds, leveraged buyouts, etc is another matter. There is a board of Directors that takes this all into consideration or not. You make up your mind.

Btw, I used to work for the AFL-CIO when putting myself through college. I remember my last contract negotiations with the union. We all met, looked at the contract and not one person in the crowd of over 1000 employees thought it was somewhat workable. We had our union leaders come out looking dejected and say "We worked all night for 3 nights and we think you should sign this contract" well WWIII almost happened as it seemed the union leaders were being paid by the company. Long story short, the contract got signed but the very next contract they went on one of the longest strikes in Safeway history. I don't have much faith in unions anymore besides paying a bunch of fat idiots to do nothing.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012 - 07:07:04 PM by HP_Cuda »
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Offline brads70

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Re: I don't understand people...
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2012 - 08:59:22 PM »
I'm left wondering why the "Government" (not mentioning any names?) didn't "bail" them out like they did with so many other companies with executives making obsene wages, pensions, bounus, etc....?
 :stirpot:

 :bigsmile:
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Offline dodj

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Re: I don't understand people...
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2012 - 04:28:05 PM »
thats what happens when you take GOD out of everything. IMO
:dunno: Is he 'pro-union' or 'anti-union'?
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Offline shadango

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Re: I don't understand people...
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2012 - 01:43:31 PM »
I love how people are quick to condemn those who make more money for a job than they do.

But I would bet that NO ONE here would balk or feel bad if their employer offered them a big bonus and a bigger paycheck.

Companies have the right to pay heir employees what they feel is appropriate, based on their value to the company.

Line workers are a dime a dozen.

People who can make big money for a company are harder to find and therefore get better wages.

I wish I were a CEO.  But I am just a lo-end peon. I never made it to CEO.  Probably won't either.  But I understand why that is and am not bitter...even when sometimes it seems "unfair".   But there is NO SUCH THING as "fair".

Unions preach "fairness"....just like the Occupy people.    "Everyone deserves a piece of the pie."

Maybe, but who decides on the SIZE of the piece of the pie?

Dig a little and see who provided backing for many of the Occupy groups.   

Not all unions are bad...and in some situations unions have stood up for what is right. Especially when it comes to safety and health issues.

But in many situations, unions forget that the reason companies are in business is to MAKE BIG PROFITS.  Not to share.

We all have the right to work wherever we want, based on what we can make doing what we know how to do. 

We do NOT have the right to force anyone to pay us more than the market will support.

Another thing to consider: Everyone is quick to condemn the "fat cat CEOs".   Well, I worked for a union 20 years ago and I can tell you first hand that the $200 lunches and staff cars and big salaries for little work is VERY much the norm at many union headquarters.  Unions are run JUST like businesses.

The one I worked for had a "scab" policy....only union workers could work a union plant!   Well, what the union never told its membership is that MANY of the workers at the headquarters were contractors, working day to day because they did not want to hire a union person for the role! I know because I was that contractor.  They worked me day-to-day and I got paid half what a union-paid person in that role would have made.  I was OK with it.   But would the membership have been ok with it?

So there is good and bad.

Common sense has to come into play.  Its a different world and everyone who works an assembly line or bags groceries cant expect to have a pension for 25 years after he/she retires from the line.  That business model worked decades ago but is no longer doable.

When a company is no longer making the profit it wants to make, why should it stay in business?

If your employer comes to you today and says "we need you to make one third your pay", do you stay and work happily or look elsewhere?

The union gambled and the company called its bluff.

If you REALLY want a pension and big $$$, figure out how to BE a ceo or build your own business.  Or be in politics.  That is where the REAL money is...and its ruining America....yet people keep condemning CEOs.

The idea of "everyone should share equally" is exactly why our country is as messed up as it is.

Just one idiot's opinion.... :ylsuper:

Offline Super Blue 72

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Re: I don't understand people...
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2012 - 09:28:01 AM »
If they had started making granola bars, low fat twinkies or something else like that

Sorry, have to ad my  :2cents: here, they did in fact years ago make low fat Twinkies.  They weren't bad.  Only found them in the thrift shops, not on the supermarket shelves.  I used to visit the thrift shop a lot during my work route.

I did my part to support Hostess... burp....  :bigsmile:

Yes, it is sad so many will be losing their jobs...   :-\
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012 - 09:30:38 AM by Super Blue 72 »
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Offline BIGSHCLUNK

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Re: I don't understand people...
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2012 - 11:36:38 PM »
I love how people are quick to condemn those who make more money for a job than they do.

But I would bet that NO ONE here would balk or feel bad if their employer offered them a big bonus and a bigger paycheck.

Companies have the right to pay heir employees what they feel is appropriate, based on their value to the company.

Line workers are a dime a dozen.

People who can make big money for a company are harder to find and therefore get better wages.

I wish I were a CEO.  But I am just a lo-end peon. I never made it to CEO.  Probably won't either.  But I understand why that is and am not bitter...even when sometimes it seems "unfair".   But there is NO SUCH THING as "fair".

Unions preach "fairness"....just like the Occupy people.    "Everyone deserves a piece of the pie."

Maybe, but who decides on the SIZE of the piece of the pie?

Dig a little and see who provided backing for many of the Occupy groups.   

Not all unions are bad...and in some situations unions have stood up for what is right. Especially when it comes to safety and health issues.

But in many situations, unions forget that the reason companies are in business is to MAKE BIG PROFITS.  Not to share.

We all have the right to work wherever we want, based on what we can make doing what we know how to do. 

We do NOT have the right to force anyone to pay us more than the market will support.

Another thing to consider: Everyone is quick to condemn the "fat cat CEOs".   Well, I worked for a union 20 years ago and I can tell you first hand that the $200 lunches and staff cars and big salaries for little work is VERY much the norm at many union headquarters.  Unions are run JUST like businesses.

The one I worked for had a "scab" policy....only union workers could work a union plant!   Well, what the union never told its membership is that MANY of the workers at the headquarters were contractors, working day to day because they did not want to hire a union person for the role! I know because I was that contractor.  They worked me day-to-day and I got paid half what a union-paid person in that role would have made.  I was OK with it.   But would the membership have been ok with it?

So there is good and bad.

Common sense has to come into play.  Its a different world and everyone who works an assembly line or bags groceries cant expect to have a pension for 25 years after he/she retires from the line.  That business model worked decades ago but is no longer doable.

When a company is no longer making the profit it wants to make, why should it stay in business?

If your employer comes to you today and says "we need you to make one third your pay", do you stay and work happily or look elsewhere?

The union gambled and the company called its bluff.

If you REALLY want a pension and big $$$, figure out how to BE a ceo or build your own business.  Or be in politics.  That is where the REAL money is...and its ruining America....yet people keep condemning CEOs.

The idea of "everyone should share equally" is exactly why our country is as messed up as it is.

Just one idiot's opinion.... :ylsuper:

As a small business owner AND a former union member, I'd say you have some well thought out words here. I live in a town that had tons of manufacturing, most is now gone. I can remember a few instances when companies called the unions bluff. Yes who dosen' want more money more benefits more perks. And I do agree that some CEO's are just so far over the top its unreal. Just like some of the towns out west, when the goldrush was done, the rest is not sustainable. No matter what you do for a living everything boils down to one thing in the end, SALES. And if you cant sell it, or sell enough of it thats it DONE! 
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