Power Plant Suggestions

[Srtviperjr]

Hi folks!

I recently aquired a new project car (1970 Cuda 440) which is a former drag car (caged, fuel cell, high comp motor) and want to convert it to a pro-touring car.

I am on the fence with what to do on the motor, I am not interested in tuning a carb or dealing with cold start issues etc etc. (yes I am a young punk who has no patience for that stuff).

Goal of the motor is to make 500+ HP, have nice street manners, sound great with some cam lope, not horrible gas mileage and no constant tuning. I am not a fabricator or engine builder and am not really interested in hacking up the car to make something fit.

Regardless of the motor choice I want a modern 5 speed transmission (I have read there are numerous bolt up kits for the 440). I am also going to be using a modern front end setup, XV/Control Freak

Options I am considering at this point:

1. Build the 440, 500ci stroker kit, FAST EFI, some fancy Heads (unsure what makes sense)
2. Buy a 6.1 HEMI with a AEM standalone and some go-fast bits to make the HP goal

Future it may become a boosted motor (either SC or TT) so I am trying to stay somewhere along that path.

Budget is ~$10k

Suggestions? Pro's Cons?

['Cuda Hunter]

Let's see some pics of your car.

Since it was a racer, I am wondering how cut up it is and how hard it will be to return it to a street car.

First suggestion,  Raise your budget with all that protouring talk. 

PIcs, pics ,pics.

[Srtviperjr]

Hahaha thats just the budget for the motor!! I know there is probably another $15-20k waiting to be spent on the suspension, rims, tires to get me to the end point on the pro-touring goal.

Don't have any pics of the inside of the car here at work but here's as she sits today.

It has a mini-tub now so rear tire clearances should not be a problem, I plan to replace the ladder bar setup in favor of a 4 link so I can get the exhaust out the back.

Currently it has a 727 transmission but was a former 4 speed car and the pedals are still there.

Floors will likely all be replaced after the cage is cut-out so I am assuming whatever the previoius owner has hacked up will be undone and it'll be reverted to stock.

[71chmark]

Nice!

[72cudamaan]

First problem I see is you're on the fence with bolt on's (sc ,tt). These change the compression ratio decisions
drastically. A street motor with aluminum heads can be in the neighborhood of 10.5-1. A
supercharger runs somewhere around 7or8-1. So a piston or head change would be needed to reduce
your compression for these options. Sure would get pricey. My opinion is you need to decide what you want
out of a power plant and build to fit. This could mean selling one to upgrade to a power adder engine.

[Srtviperjr]

The power adders are years and years away if they ever happen, I only meant it may be easier based on one platform than the other to go that route.

I am aware that CR's, CAM's and a bunch of other things would need to be adjusted when moving to forced induction. But if as an example there are a million kits out there to Supercharge or turbo a modern Hemi v.s. slim pickings to do the same to a stroked 440 it may feed into my decision.

I want to understand my future options as I make this decision. I plan to have this car for a long time and don't think I will ever be "done" with modifying it. 

Just looking to get opinions from others who have already "been there done that", my pro's and cons as I see them (not based on any significant facts) are:

Stroked 440
Pro's
-have block already
-know it fits without modifications
-know the 5 speed I have my eye on fits without modifications
-FAST EFI can support forced induction
-know I can get the sound I like from it

Cons
-Forced induction is likely going to be a custom kit $$
-heavier?
-too many options out there for heads / cams - what to choose? will it all work together?

Modern Hemi Swap
Pro's
-better reliability?
-less mixing and matching of combinations (heads/cams/exhaust)?
-many kits out there to go forced induction (with little internal mods ?)
-better fuel economy?

Con's
-transmissions? will it require a transmission which also require modifications to the car?
-fabrication required to install
-hood clearance issues?
-accessory clearance issues?
-more complicated to install (much more electronics)
-haven't heard one sounding like what I want

[Chryco Psycho]

Don't replace the ladder bar system with a 4 link , get creative about routing the exhaust , the ladder is a better system especially for street use , use the money saved to route exhaust .
 Modern hemi is cool , has limited upside HP but will make the 500 & has EFI or is easily adapted , the 440 can make 700+ HP but EFI is a bit more challenging but not difficult , I built a 440 non stroker with alum heads that made 702 gross HP with 1200 CFM EFI & 80 lb / hr injectors , it had a roller race cam , but idled well had great street mannors ETC !!

[73EStroker]

Why not go with a 340 with 2 turbo chargers and EFI for pro-touring. If you go big block or small block traditional make sure you check out the Passon 5 speed out. Expensive but overall probably the same cost as installing a weaker Tremec etc. Jaimie is about to finally start supplying the gearboxes soon. His units keep all the driveline angles etc correct.

[HP_Cuda]

If you really plan on hooking up hence thinking about a 4 link suspension or ladder bars - pay close attention to the tranny and subframe connectors.

I've built mine with the knowledge that it will spin the tires but I won't worry that much about finding a hemi 4 speed in the short term.

[dodge freak 2]

I am not interested in tuning a carb or dealing with cold start issues etc etc. (yes I am a young punk who has no patience for that stuff).

I thought tuning was half the fun ?

[moparman82]

If ur looking to be in 500 hp range (any more would be useless on a autocross course), you really should consider a blown or turbo'd 340, nice set of w-9 heads, you will clear your 500 hp goal without the big block weight or the modern hemi complications.   Everything on the new hemi's is torque-to-yield, so if ur plannin on building it yourself expect to pay about $900 on 2 torque wrenches that wont let you overtighten, "click" style isnt gonna cut it.  plus 3 sets of rod bolts, etc.  Its no picnic lol

[dodge freak 2]

I was at this engine shop last summer and they got a bunch of old BBM engines laying around  straight from the junk yards in case customers need a engine to start with.

I was like, "think these new Hemi motors will still be worth rebuilding when they are 40 years old" ...it was a big NO from their machinist   

[Srtviperjr]

OK looks like I am going to stick with the 440 route. Forced induction will sit on the shelf for a while.

For the suggestions on the 340, I had one in the last Cuda and always yearned for the big block sound!

When I said track I meant road course not autocross

Thanks for the sanity guys!

[HP2]

Sound is a combination of compression ratio with valve event timing. I'd imagine all the big blocks you have heard that drive your desire were built as higher performance mills that tended to have greater compression ratios and larger cam specifications. Those events can be duplicated in just about any four cycle V style engine if you get the correct combination of components.

By road racing, are you talking about sanctioned competition or open track day, run what you brung events?  Open track days are not like bracket racing where you have a winner who gets a check. They are more of a point of pride and are used to develop your driving skills rather than an all out competition. As such, the requirement to quickly swap out springs rates to reduce an extra .1 of a second in lap time, as achieved by a coil over set up, is significantly diminished. That means solid and predicatable performance can be acheived with a good selection of stock style parts for a quarter of the price of a complete coil over conversion. If you're actually hitting sanctioned comeptition, then that is a whole new world of requirements.

As a mopar build, the availability of "numerous" kits to do anything are going to be considerably different than for brand C or F vehicles. In the mopar world, numerous usually mean you have three choices instead of none.

If you have a high compression 440 race engine already, maybe the best starting point would be to adapt it to efi  and see how that does in achieving your initial set of engine goals. Many times, radical race type engines can be made much more streetable with the ability to fine tune fuel delivery. But that depends on the compression and cam it is running currently. Depending on your ability for tuning and fab skills in creating the manifold and fuel system, doing this one conversion may cost you any where from a quarter to nearly half of your total engine budget. That doesn't leave much on the table for rebuilds that can run many thousands more, not to mention changing up cylinder heads which can potenially be a few thousands more on top of that. Simply updating thigns for the sake of updates isn't always necessary.

[Srtviperjr]

By road racing I would be doing HPDE's or lapping days maybe 3-4 per year, most of my time would be spent driving on the street. Nothing competitive.

The motor and transmission (440/727) which is currently in the car is aimed for drag racing with a very high compression ratio (previous owner said 13:1) and requires using 110 octane gas. So that's not gonna fly for my purposes, it also has a small 5 gallon fuel cell - that needs to be replaced by a stock tank.

I am wary about trying to adapt the existing motor to EFI because I don't have all the details and don't feel like dealing with a Frankenstein combination or discovering things along the way. I already know I don't want 13:1 compression so it's gotta be torn apart.

Since I have a spare 440 block I might as well sell the existing powertrain and build it anew with components I want and are proven to work with each other with minimal fuss, also building a 440 v.s. a 340 can't be much different in cost which is why I am leaning towards the 440.