Old Hemi, New Hemi, Stroker, or Up my 440

[1970 440 RT's]

Hoping this topic will generate alot of discussion, so if you all have any experience with these setups, please chime in...!

First of all, I bought a car that already had a decent running 440. It had a 509 cam, 915 heads, stock manifolds, stock exhaust, runs 'nice'. But I live at high altitude of 6,000' above sea level, so I need all the help I can get.

So I figured I would try a few upgrades. Found some Edelbrock 84cc RPM Heads, TTI 1 7/8 headers, installed a Lunati 60303 cam to widen the power band, and 3" exhaust. 3" exhaust added some power, and Cam tamed the down low rpm so it pulled quite a bit better down low and idled much better while still having a nice lopey, but not dying anymore, idle.

Next was going to be the Heads and Headers at the same time. Well, when I pulled the one head, I noticed that the 915 (approx 79cc) heads have 1.84 in exhaust valves already in them, with some kind of triple spring, and just a little exhaust clean up porting, with 2.14 intake valves and no porting there with the steel shim head gaskets at .020 thick. I also discovered that this engine has 'low compression' flat top pistons as they are approx .15 down below the deck at tdc, and I believe it has the 'heavy' six pack rods. Effectively, my compression ratio with the ultra thin .020 head gasket comes out to this: Original 915 heads: 8.5:1 Edelbrock RPM heads: 8.2:1 This just seems too low for decent horsepower, and I am already handicapped by high altitude. ....or am I wrong?

So now, here are the options I am looking at, and they are all over the board, but I would like answers about each and any that you all have experiences with. THANKS!

OPTION #1: Try Indy Heads- If I sell the other heads and buy INDY w/75cc combustion chambers: 8.75:1 with steel .020 gasket. This would also require me to buy an adjustable valve train and new pushrods, intake, etc. Is 8.75:1 still going to be to weak considering going iron to Aluminum, high altitude, etc...?

OPTION #2: Stroker it up- Stroker options:
1. Change my bottom end to a stroker with new pistons, crank etc. and have the block machined .040
2. Buy a complete stroker short block... and from whom is the best deal and quality? I do NOT want to rip things apart 3 times due to shoddy work!
3. 512 or 493 (4.25 stroke, or 4.15)
4. Buy my own extra block and have IT machined and keep my nice running engine as a spare
5. A complete long block stroker... but I already have heads and intake...so... ?

OPTION #3: OLD style Crate Hemi: Buy a 572 Crate Hemi from INDY 770HP 700TQ Questions: It costs $17k just for the long block engine. It is a MONSTER in size, and barely fit in a 68 Charger I saw, (and he was still having issues getting the header to have enough clearance on the psngr side to clear the shock tower) How much more do I have to spend on Headers, Pullies, mounts, etc. to actually get it in and running?

OPTION #4: NEW style Crate Hemi: Buy a 'modern style' Hemi 535 HP 475 TQ w/carbeurator From INDY
Questions: It costs $10,500 just for the engine. What is the real added cost by the time I buy Headers, Pullies, Mounts, etc. to actually get it in and running?

OPTION #5: 440 (NON-stroker) with lighter rods, and higher compression and edelbrock heads. I am guessing 10:1 should be good on pump gas w/Aluminum heads With all of these options,

INDY is NOT a requirement, they just seem to have a good assortment, but I am open to all others... Mancini, Hughes, local machine, etc.... Is there anybody who is good in COLORADO? I would rather buy locally if it is in the cards...

If all of this doesn't generate some good discussion, what will...lol...?

Thanks in advance!

70 Challenger R/T 440 4 spd Dana 3:54

PS... if anybody has one already running that I can transplant, I might be interested.  I like already running, because I don't like doing all the work, and then finding there was some machine flaw that caused a leak or spun bearing, etc.

[PlumCraZRT]

OPTION #5: 440 (NON-stroker) with lighter rods, and higher compression and edelbrock heads. I am guessing 10:1 should be good on pump gas w/Aluminum heads With all of these options,

Option #5 is the low-buck solution and should be able to get you over 500 hp, no problem.  I got the parts and had a shop build my 451 to over 500 hp and 530 ft-lbs with a nice, flat torque curve.

Of course, since you have a 440, all you would need is the block to be decked, maybe a set of custom pistons (to get quench right).  You could use all of your current parts.

If you wanted, you could get longer rods and lighten the pistons... I don't know too much about the options you have, but keeping the 440 would be a good choice.  With the Indy heads, 600 hp shouldn't be too difficult with the 440 bottom end.

[Chryco Psycho]

The reality is with the pistons over 1/8 inch below deck nothing short of pistons is going to help , you cannot get close to quench or decent compression with upgrading the pistons ! the Alum heads even with smaller chambers is no help either as the alum will absorb more heat. With your altitude 10.7 should work with pump gas as long as you have quench  even with iron heads .
 If you have not bought the eddy heads I would pass on them , if you want alum 440 source heads are cheaper with the same potential or better , porting the iron head properly will get close too , or spend a bit more & get the EZ Indy heads

[1970 440 RT's]

Surprised nobody picked option #3 yet ...lol

Already have the Eddy heads.  I got a deal on a new set, basically for the price of the stealths.

Still looking for good reputable quick engine builders near Denver Colorado if I go that route of a rebuild or stroker set up.

Keep the ideas coming!!!!

Thanks everyone in advance!

[Tonker1]

  I have nothing to add, this will be an extremely interesting thread!

[The Cuda Guy]

If your looking for a good Stroker short block PM Moparal, he might be willing to part with his 520 cid.  He mentioned it to me not to long ago that he was looking for something bigger.


Don

[73restomod]

Being 6k above sea level really puts the hurt to power, I know I spent a year in Wyoming. Two things work great regardless of altitude NOS and boost. However, I would avoid turbo charging. It will cause even greater lag than normal. Just another option if your open to it.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[1970 440 RT's]

Okay, now that I have done ALOT of research....

The 572 Hemi would be nice, but I drove a nice 600hp Hemi, and other than looking cooler,
the cost is much too high for something that a 440 does just as well, and my car came with a 440 and
once you put a shaker on, the 440 looks pretty darn cool, even next to a Hemi.  Looking about 19k total vs about 3k
to finish up with what I have here.

So... I think I have decided on and located a stroker 440 block .030 over.

Narrowed down to 2 choices: 

4.15 stroke 493 (500@.060 over I think) w/6.76 rod

4.25 stroke 505 (512@.060 over I think) w/7.1 rods

STREET build:
10 ish:1
Edelbrock RPM heads 84cc (since they are laying here)
TTI  1 7/8 Headers (Already sitting here)
Cam 60304 or 60305 Lunati Voodoo... someone talk me into a hydraulic roller...?

New Questions:  I was firmly decided on 505/512, but found more readily available and cheaper parts for 493/500

So.... Since they are similar in cubic inches...,

1.  What are the advantages of one over the other (505/512 vs 493/500) besides a few cubes?
     
2.  How much REAL  HP and TQ difference would there be between the two built otherwise identically, cam , heads, etc...

3.  Reliability any better one way or the other?

4.  Cam... Lunati  60304, 60305, or ...?

5.  According to 440 source kits, w/84cc edelbrock heads and .039 head gasket, I will get:
    512 kit:  10.05:1  with quench height of .054
    512 kit:  11.29:1  with quench heght of  .049
    500 kit:  10.85:1  with quench height of .057
    Please include this in the decision as to 10.85 500 ci might make up for 10.05 512 ci, etc.

6.  Feel free to recommend SPECIFIC kits such as: 440 source, Mancini, Summit, You have one for sale,  Other ideas...
     PS have not heard back from Moparal having one for sale...

Thanks a bunch everybody

[Chryco Psycho]

makes sense to me , you can build a 512 for what the heads & rocker gear costs for a Hemi , the onlt time a hemi loses is when you consider bang for the $$ , they are just expensive to build !
1] Rod ratio , I believe this is what seperates the Mopars even when the HP is similar the Mopar pulls harder . Although I recently read an article by an Nascar builder who will "spend months looking for as little as 3 HP who claims this is the worst situation for intake draw , the piston should move away from TC faster to aid intake breathing " , my take is opposite , the longer rod ratio keeps the piston @ TDC longer & moves away slower which helps maximize complete combustion & gives more time for the burn to work against the piston which should increase torque & mileage .
2]  The actual difference all things being equal using the smae build with shorter rods would be interesting to test
3] Longer rods side load the pistons less but the piston skirt may be  slightly shorter with a long rod but not nessisarily , my preference is the longer rod
4] How long is a piece of string ?  first the cam has to share the same powerband as the intake , you need to consider  torque converter stall , the cam has to be in the powerband before the converter locks . What is the rear gear ratio , tire size , & intended use of the car , if you are cruising on the highway @ 2500 rpm @ 70 MPH the last thing you want is a 3000 stall converter because the cam has a high powerband , this combo will potentially damage the tranny with heat as the converter will be constantly slipping , the problem gets worse if you have OD & rop the rpms even further , so this has to be carefully planned out or the combo will be disappointing . A common situation is where a large cam is installed with a mild low stall converter , the engine makes power from 2500-6000 rpm , the converter locks at 1800 rpm so the engine is under load before the engine is into the powerband , the car is a dog off the line & can never spin the tires even on wet pavement , totally disappointing !
5 ] I have used 440 Source parts no problem , we did use a Eagle crank in one build , it took 8 hrs of machining to fit it so it had clearance to rotate in the block , all the counterweights had to be trimmed down . Yes you can save $$ on the parts but it may cost you a lot more by the time they fit or work so be careful .
 

[1970 440 RT's]

Hi CP

You are such the fast answerer..., in fact so fast that I decided to modify question 5 there and did not get the question in in time...lol

So as it sits, Here are the available compression ratios for the combos...

5.  According to 440 source kits, w/84cc edelbrock heads and .039 head gasket, I will get:
    512 kit:  10.05:1  with quench height of .054
    512 kit:  11.29:1  with quench heght of  .049
    500 kit:  10.85:1  with quench height of .057

I see you prefer the 7.1 rod length, but I lose a bit at 10.05:1 on the 512 in retrospect.
IF I can run the .020 metal Mopar head gasket, that brings it to 10.44:1 or so though.

I think 11.29 will be just a tad too much for the pump.  So scratch that one, and carry on with:

5.  Compression Ratio factoring in the decision.

4. The CAM ...or 'piece of string...:  Challenger is a 440 4 speed w/3.54 Dana.  I don't want to be boggy down low because the cam is too durned big, but I want maximum HP+torque that I can pull through the unported Edelbrock RPM heads, whatever that takes, but I don't want to adjust rockers all the time.  I may upgrade the heads down the road if I get a deal on a set of INDYs, or may cnc the edelbrocks at some point, but not right away.  This is a mostly street car. I don't care about 1 extra 1/10th of a second in the quarter mile if it comes at  the expense of losing all driveability, but I do want some serious power/tq, or I would just not bother w/the stroker and have left it as is.  It runs 'nice' as a basic 440  8.5:1 with a 60303 cam and 915 heads. 

So again on the cam with the above info:
4.  Lunati  60304 or 60305 or talk me in to somethin' else...?

Thanks again, y'all
Thanks everybody once again!

[Chryco Psycho]

I tend to agree , 11.2 compression is pushing it ,
the 500 10.85 looks good or the 512 with either a .020 steel shim gasket , I would use Cometic BTW never a composition with the dis-similar metals as thegasket will eventually fail with the different expansion rates , leaving the piston .020 below deck giving you a quench of the minimum .040 or bring the deck down so the piston is flush with the deck & use a .040 thick gasket bringing it up to about 10.4 as you said , but you need to have .040 between the piston & head .
 Using a 4 spd gives you a lot more wiggle room with the cam as you can adjust stall speed !! This allows you to use a larger cam & still run at lower RPm on the highway . Lunati has just been working on a series of modern street roller cams hyd & solid so you need to talk to them directly about what they have available , , my machinist has an Experimental cam [probably production now] in his 408 stroker rod & loves it awsome combo of driveability milage & wicked powerband .
 the 60304 looks better to me , are you really going to push this to close to 7000 rpm ?

[1970 440 RT's]

Nowhere near 7000 rpm.

I like to shift big blocks at 6,000 rpm.  Was looking at the bigger cam 60305 because 'they' say the stroker 'eats up a lot of cam' but did not know if that is too much duration, or still not big enough, etc.... 

As to 'quench' were you saying a MAxImum of .040 clearance, or what is the good range to get 'quench' to be effective?

Thanks again for all the input!

[Chryco Psycho]

I deal quench is .040-.060 but still has effect up to .080 or higher , I would not go closer than .039 .
 IMO you are wasting powerband by using the 60305 if the peak is around 6600 , maybe 6400 in a stroker & you shoul dbe shifting past peak so you do not fall too far out of the powerband on the shift .

[1970 440 RT's]

CAM QUESTION!!!!
(I know everybody asks... )

Here is the build so far...

'76 440 block, .030 over (505ci using 512 kit)

Just over 10:1
Edelbrock RPM 84cc heads
TTI Headers 1 7/8"
4 spd
3.54 Rear Gears

Looking to start with flat tappet hydraulic and stock rockers, just to get the rest going for a while.

Just wondering why you would favor the 60304 over the 60305 Lunati cam?

440 source says the comp .564 rocks in a stroker and idles well at 800 rpm.  It is also bigger than both of the lunati's

Also, most people are recommending a minimum .245 duration at .050. on a stroker, and this is closer to the 60305.

Please help, as I want to get the right one the first time.   Not disagreeing in any way, just looking for details...

Trying to order the cam soon, so any and all detailed advice is well heeded. 

Thanks!!!!!!

[Chryco Psycho]

Why not call Lunati & discuss it with them , be honest about where you will generally use this engine , if you tell them you are always between 4500 -6500 RPM the recommendation will be different & you may be disappointed. I have dealt with Steve Slavick for years , Jeff is also good !
 I have been down the too big cam road , if you want a really strong torque curve in the lower to mid rpm range the small cam may fit your needs better . Years ago I put a Big cam in my 440 , could not idle it below 1400  , although I do know ho wto tune carbs beter now , it pulled like crazy 3500 up , I shiftd it @ 7200 RPM & it showed no signs of being out of the powerband , maybe it nosed over at 7500 -8000 range but I never dared to go there !!