Author Topic: Starter relay/ voltage limiter  (Read 4528 times)

Offline tony 73

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Starter relay/ voltage limiter
« on: December 14, 2012 - 01:24:07 PM »
Having trouble getting power to  Temp, oil and fuel guages on ralley cluster.  Voltage reg. may be bad. Have traced power feed back to Brown wire with yellow tracer that runs off starter relay. Multi meter says no broken wiring.  Should there be power to this wire when the key is on accesory or is it only when on run ? Starter relay is good otherwise.
 Thanks tony
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013 - 09:15:34 PM by tony 73 »




Offline MEK-Dangerfield

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Re: Starter relay
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2012 - 03:52:58 PM »
I don't have a shop manual handy right now, but I would doubt the power from the gauges comes from the starter relay.

The voltage regulator on back of the gauges could be bad. You should definitely have voltage with the key to whatever position is right before start(I forget).

Mike

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Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Starter relay
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2012 - 06:04:36 PM »
 :iagree:
 MEK is right on , the power to the gauges is I believe a black wire to the voltage reg which is switched from the ign but I cannot remember where , so you need to find the power wire to the reg & determine if it has power then the reg is bad

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline dodj

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Re: Starter relay
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2012 - 08:33:25 PM »
Power comes from fuse #6, to the yellow acc mold then to the limiter.
Scott
1973 Challenger  440 4 spd 
2007.5 3500 6.7 Cummins Diesel, Anarchy tuned.
Good friends don't let friends do stupid things. ........alone.

Offline tony 73

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Re: Starter relay
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2012 - 04:22:54 PM »
Excellent help fellars. Embarrassed to say I missed a poor conection at the ignition plug. It was your great advice that made me recheck. Now have power at voltage reg. Have new ralley water temp sender but all guage did when key was at accessory was move all the way to hot. No movement from fuel or oil guages. Will start engine today and may get guages to work then.
 Keep you posted, thanks tony.

Offline Jamiez

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Re: Starter relay
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2012 - 04:52:02 PM »
My oil pressure gauge wire worked it's way loose.  I found the female spade connector that goes on top of the "bell" shaped sender was also intermittent.  I ended up putting a new female end on it. and that took care of it.  To test the gauge/wiring you can take the wire and ground it.  That should peg the gauge.  You could also compare the resistance of the top of the sender and ground with the engine running.  I forget what the exact range should be but if it reads super high/OL/Open then the sender is not working right.

For the fuel sending unit the most common problem is the ground strap missing/broken.  It should go from the unit to the frame.  The unit is electrically isolated from the tank itself for safety reasons.  You should be able to access the sender from under the car on the driver's side.  You'll need to remove the heat shield to get to it.  You can ground the plug and see if the fuel gauge pegs.  If it does, and the ground strap is good, but it still doesn't work, then most likely the sending unit has passed.  Typically the float has cracked/corroded and is taking on fuel so it no longer floats.  You can get a replacement but you'll want to save some parts from the original as they fit better (you can find threads on this)

Offline dodj

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Re: Starter relay
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2012 - 07:43:38 PM »
I suspect your temp sender is shot. It should read a high resistance cold (ie maybe 200 ohms), and a low resistance when hot, say 20 ohms. My numbers are probably off cuz it's been a while since I was testing my sending units, but they should be in the ball park. Oil gauge wouldn't move without the engine running anyway. Fuel would move though, Jamiez thoroughly explained the testing/fixing of that one.  :2thumbs:
Scott
1973 Challenger  440 4 spd 
2007.5 3500 6.7 Cummins Diesel, Anarchy tuned.
Good friends don't let friends do stupid things. ........alone.

Offline tony 73

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Re: Starter relay
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2012 - 06:38:13 PM »
More great help Jamiez and dodj,
 I have finished work for the day so will get on to the car and gauges after lunch.
 
 Will do your tests. I do have the factory ground strap for the tank/fuel line. Thin metal strip with jaws at each end. One end on fuel line and other on sender unit pipe coming out of tank.

 Temp sender is brand new, have another one that is in the recon 318 that came with car, will try that one.

Will post results in couple of hours.
 Thanks for the help.
tony

Offline tony 73

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Re: Starter relay
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2012 - 10:45:29 PM »
No good news here. Tried grounding both fuel and oil wires , no response  from either gauge. Ran multi meter across the 2 posts on both gauges  . Had meter set on volts. Key on acc. . Fuel and oil read 11.5 . Temp no reading.  Must be the senders.  Am sure I saw the fuel gauge working when we first ran the car, only for a short time. may have a hole in float and it sunk. Might pull it out .

Offline dodj

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Re: Starter relay
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2012 - 11:03:34 PM »
Actually, if you read 12 volts across the posts of the gauges, your gauges are open (shot). The gauges are low resistance and current is controlled by the sender. I could get resistance numbers for the gauges for you tomorrow if you like. It's too cold and late at night to go out to the garage right now.

If you are reading a steady 12 volts (it should pulse 12v on and off), your limiter is likely not working properly and that is what may have caused your gauges to 'open'. (ie burn open)
Scott
1973 Challenger  440 4 spd 
2007.5 3500 6.7 Cummins Diesel, Anarchy tuned.
Good friends don't let friends do stupid things. ........alone.

Offline tony 73

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Re: Starter relay
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2012 - 02:19:07 AM »
Hay dodj , that would be great if could get those numbers. I have another limiter , might be worth trying it.

Offline dodj

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Re: Starter relay
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2012 - 08:40:52 PM »
For the temp cct, the gauge is 11 ohms and the sender (-8* celsius) is 570 ohms. I would expect the sender to have lower resisitance in warmer areas, like 300 ohms. Either way, you would see most of the voltage 'dropped' across the sender. If the sender was shorted, you would see the 12 volts dropped across the sender, but they don't usually short, and if it was, and your gauge would peg full scale. :2cents:
Scott
1973 Challenger  440 4 spd 
2007.5 3500 6.7 Cummins Diesel, Anarchy tuned.
Good friends don't let friends do stupid things. ........alone.

Offline tony 73

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Re: Starter relay
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2012 - 05:51:43 AM »
Thanks dodj,
All i have done so far is try the other limiter. Same results, no gauges. Can I test the voltage limiter out of the car or am i best to take it to business that specialises in instruments/gauges ? If I can what is the basic procedure. One limiter belongs to my original gauges, the other to the replacement 73 gauges (including harness) that I brought from the USA. The original ones were too far gone to repair.

Offline dodj

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Re: Starter relay
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2012 - 06:43:16 AM »
Just to garantee it is the gauge, connect a known resistance as a sender.
I would use a potentiometer set it to say 75 ohms and connect it to the sender side of the gauge and body ground. Then power the voltage limiter. If the gauge is functional it will respond. Vary the resistance a bit up and down. The needle should respond. If it doesn't, and you verified that you are getting a pulsed 12v out of the limiter, you have a bad gauge. Repeat with the other two. (not alt). If all your gauges are bad, it would not surprise me that you find the limiter that was on the dash is stuck and only sends out a solid 12v. If you are using the standard dash, I could sell you a standard cluster, pm if you would want to go that way. Cheaper than getting gauges redone, but you will still have 40 year old gauges.  :2cents:
Scott
1973 Challenger  440 4 spd 
2007.5 3500 6.7 Cummins Diesel, Anarchy tuned.
Good friends don't let friends do stupid things. ........alone.

Offline tony 73

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Re: Starter relay
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2012 - 07:29:44 PM »
Took the voltage limiter that came with the gauges into get tested. The guy peeled it open and the fine wire was burned and broken. Will remove the other limiter now in the car in next hour and open it to see it's condition. I can buy a locally made replacement regulator with an adjustment screw so you can vary the voltage for $85NZ ($60 US). Will need to check my gauges first. Do not have a potentiometer myself.
Hopefully I am making some progress.