How many people are still alive because he had a concealed weapon?

[73restomod]

I agree weapons are not the issue. Anyone else notice that columbine took place in the same decade that corporal punishment in our school system ended. That nothing like columbine happened before before it ended. There's a reason the bible says that you shouldn't spare the rod. In my book it was the end of discipline as a characteristic in our youths. My father was born in 1940, I was born in 1980. I got the same upbringing the rest of my siblings did, old school. If I acted the fool, I got my arse beat in school, and again when I came home; if I acted up at the dinner table i went to bed without it for a week. I new there was boundaries you just didn't push. However, it wasn't all doom and gloom. When I did good, I was rewarded for that too.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[Cuda Cody]

My point was to show that citizens can and many times do stop events similar to these two tragedies over the last couple weeks even if it doesn't make the front page of the main news. The Clackamas shooter was confronted almost immediately by a citizen and the Sandy Hook shooter had no resistance until the police arrived.

Not for a second am I suggesting we need to arm 6 and 7 year old kids. However, how many of the parents of the slain kids at Sandy Hook would now wish that their Principle or Vice Principle were armed? Almost impossible to imagine, but if it was your kid would you have wanted them to have to wait for police or get immediate protection from a trained professional on site, be it a Principle or Vice Principle. Adam Lanza (like over 50% of mass shooters) turned the gun on himself ONLY after he was aware resistance (law enforcement approaching). The time it takes for the mass killer to met resistance is the biggest factor in how many people die. Here's data from 100 mass killings in the US; you can see that when the mass shooter is stopped by a civilian the number of people killed averaged 2.3 and when stopped by police it averaged 14.2. http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/

The internet is full of facts to support almost any view a person wants to see, so I'm sure one could find many websites to support banning guns. However, a search of the U.S. Department of Justice website finds that there was 5.3 million violent crimes committed in 2008 of which 8% were committed by offenders with a gun. Remove all guns and you're still left with 92% of violent crimes. The same website also shows a survey that 69% of felons in 11 different state prisons said they personally knew of offenders that had been "scared off", shot at or captured by an armed victim. When you add back in those new victims that would not have been able to protect them self you could actually increase crime by un-arming possible victims (based on facts from the US Dept of Justice). 

[72 cuda]

Well I have had to pull my gun, though never fired it.
While collecting rents in distressed apartments (slums) that the office owns.
My wife and I are both concealed permit holders.
As for the shootings,  my wife wants to know why we don't do like Israel, and arm all teachers.
If ever there was an example it would be there.
Everything to build a bomb is illegal but it happens all the time.
The main reason for guns in my opinion is to keep the government in check, those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it.
Hitler/Stalin/Idie Amein.
Do not take my above statement about the government to harshly (I come from a long line of policemen) father and grandfather.
But today they (the government and media) are colluding to an agenda.
Just look at Waco and Ruby Ridge.
I fear it is too late, the government is in control.
Mark

[GranCuda1970]

Great data and so true.

[HP_Cuda]

No matter what side of the fence you are on, you cannot pass laws that change one's actions.

When only law abiding citizens are the ones that follow the law what good are they then?

I remember in recent past when AZ and TX started allowing more CCW's they had criminals thinking differently...

[ragtopdodge]

I don't think it's the Teachers and principals' jobs is to be security guards/policemen.

Imagine if a teacher or principal accidentally shot one of the kids?  Lawsuits galore against the school district.

We need at least one armed police officer patrolling every school, but thanks to budget cutbacks b/c no one wants to pay any taxes, very few schools has a police officer (thankfully the high school where my wife works does).


The main issue is to prevent guns in the hands of those who shouldn't have one.  I.e. if you have children (even adult children) that don't have a license to own/shoot a gun, your guns needs to be locked away.  The mother of the shooter was heavily armed, but couldn't prevent from being shot herself.  Maybe if she had those guns locked up, we wouldn't have this tragedy.

Also, really, there's no reason to have 30+ round clips.  I'm not advocating to have gun bans, but high-capacity clips have just one purpose:  mass slaughter.

[ragtopdodge]

I remember in recent past when AZ and TX started allowing more CCW's they had criminals thinking differently...

Those increased CCW permits didn't prevent the murderous rampage in AZ where a Congresswoman got shot and 6 others killed. 


I'm in favor of guns w/this capability:
http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/design-architecture/new-gun-design-uses-rfid-to-boost-safety/4662

Especially if you have children.


BTW, I have a CCW permit and so does my wife, but we don't have kids and our firearms are all hidden very well.  Too many irresponsible adults are either leaving their guns out or allowing their kids access when they haven't got the proper training or mental capacity to handle such a weapon.

[brads70]

I agree that it's not the teachers/Principles job ( no one should be forced to carry) but I see nothing wrong with them being allowed to if they choose to and are properly trained.  Just knowing that it is a distinct possibility that teachers etc... could be armed would be a deterrent

[72cudamaan]

Also, really, there's no reason to have 30+ round clips.  I'm not advocating to have gun bans, but high-capacity clips have just one purpose:  mass slaughter.
[/quote]

Or target practice 

[ragtopdodge]

Also, really, there's no reason to have 30+ round clips.  I'm not advocating to have gun bans, but high-capacity clips have just one purpose:  mass slaughter.


Or target practice

Fine.  Allow them at the gun range. 

But elsewhere, are you that lazy you can't reload?  Have extra clips loaded when you shoot in the woods?  Did our Founding Fathers envision the kind of weaponry we'd have 200 years later when all they knew about were muskets?  You can argue that fully automatic machine guns should be allowed as well...but why again?  Target practice?  What's the skill in that?

[Cuda Cody]

I ask you to rethink your commit about no one wanting to pay taxes.  We pay more taxes than ever before in history and asking people (anyone) to pay more it saying that the government is running at 100% efficiency.  Several good friends work at government jobs and just the other day (while in my shop using my paint booth) the school electrician was telling about some of the mass waste in the school budget.  He told me he and his fellow employees have a motto:  They don't care, we don't care, Ee i ee i oh! 

Simple drug tests for any entitlement program and some common sense would free up more money than the schools could spend.  We all want our taxe dollars to go to good causes including police, fire, and schools.

I'm sure our founding fathers did not envision mass killings 200 years later, but I'm sure they did not envision the tax and government waste being what it is today either.  Isn't the excessive taxes from England the reason the United States was found?  Now we have taxes that rival them and sometimes exceed.

I don't think it's the Teachers and principals' jobs is to be security guards/policemen.

Imagine if a teacher or principal accidentally shot one of the kids?  Lawsuits galore against the school district.

We need at least one armed police officer patrolling every school, but thanks to budget cutbacks b/c no one wants to pay any taxes, very few schools has a police officer (thankfully the high school where my wife works does).


The main issue is to prevent guns in the hands of those who shouldn't have one.  I.e. if you have children (even adult children) that don't have a license to own/shoot a gun, your guns needs to be locked away.  The mother of the shooter was heavily armed, but couldn't prevent from being shot herself.  Maybe if she had those guns locked up, we wouldn't have this tragedy.

Also, really, there's no reason to have 30+ round clips.  I'm not advocating to have gun bans, but high-capacity clips have just one purpose:  mass slaughter.

[ragtopdodge]

I agree that it's not the teachers/Principles job ( no one should be forced to carry) but I see nothing wrong with them being allowed to if they choose to and are properly trained.  Just knowing that it is a distinct possibility that teachers etc... could be armed would be a deterrent

I really doubt it.  There was a kid in Oklahoma contemplating bringing a gun to a school assembly to do maximum killing.  Doubt these monsters think about anyone being armed that would prevent them from doing such an act.  They usually have a death wish themselves.

If your 6-year old kid was shot, execution style, multiple times, in a school like in Newtown, CT, would you advocate nothing to be done?

[ragtopdodge]

Well...we are in a Wall-mart mentality.

We want to have stuff, but not pay for it.  Not sure where you're getting your figures where we pay the most taxes in history.  I haven't found anything to back that up, but on the contrary, yes:  http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/30/us/most-americans-face-lower-tax-burden-than-in-the-80s.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

So....you think our schools are just wasting money left and right?  Have you worked in a school?  Every single copy of paper is audited.  Everything.  Maybe your friend with his anecdotal story has a case with HIS job is concerned.  Maybe they should fire him if he's paid too much.

Drug tests for those on welfare...yea, that will raise a ton of cash.  Who will pay for the tests?  And most folks on welfare have children.  Guess they should be kicked to the curb and fend for themselves.

When we spend $800B/yr on Defense spending, with $1000 hammers and toilets, yet we complain about our schools?  Where is our priority?  ANd why can't we protect our kids in our schools, yet we have endless amt of money for battleships, and nuclear subs to fight Al Qaeda?

[brads70]

I really doubt it.  There was a kid in Oklahoma contemplating bringing a gun to a school assembly to do maximum killing.  Doubt these monsters think about anyone being armed that would prevent them from doing such an act.  They usually have a death wish themselves.

If your 6-year old kid was shot, execution style, multiple times, in a school like in Newtown, CT, would you advocate nothing to be done?

I would reply I would vote/say the positives would out weight the negatives if educators were allowed to carry IF they chose to.
I think we both agree/know nothing can be done to prevent this from happening ever again.
Your asking me  ....
"If your 6-year old kid was shot, execution style, multiple times, in a school like in Newtown, CT, would you advocate nothing to be done?"

is somewhat sensationalized? You sound like CNN or something?

What possible difference would it matter if my kid was shot once or "multiple times execution style"
My kid would still be dead. Would I be devistated.... sure!, Angry?... you bet!
But I sure wouldn't be blaming the "gun" or "high capacity magazine. That's as mindless as me asking you would you feel better if you or a loved one was killed with one bullet or multiple ones?
Or would you feel better being killed by a small homemade bomb/IED or a large one, killed by a small car or a large one? Small baseball bat or a larger one.....

Evil is all around us, always has been as long as mankind has been on this earth, always will be... as one of your wiser leaders once said
" evil flourishes when good men do nothing"
I get it your pissed off and hurt and want to do something and make a difference, a positive one. We share that in common! I do too but the answer doesn't lie in restricting or banning inanimate objects .
I'd be looking at groups like the ACLU  and be asking if they have been a force for positive or negative change.

[tommyg29]

Latecomer, but thought I would add.
100 years ago we had no federal income tax, and we were the greatest and most powerful nation on earth. We had lots of other issues, but we had no income tax.
I carry on occasion too, and hope I never have to use it, but there are probably 100 million gun owners in this country, and that makes anyone who might consider violence against us think twice, including other countries. You think iraq and afghan were heavily armed, just try going house to house during a war in this country.
And never forget that the constitution recognizes our God-given rights, that no government can infringe upon, and it implies, and the federalist papers concur, that our citizens have the right to be armed equally with any soldier that might come knocking on our door with the intention of trampling those rights, whether it be a musket, an M4 carbine with two 30 round magazines attached, or some ray gun 100 years from now, if we make it that long. For now, I pray for the souls of those 20 children, and their grieving families. I cant imagine what they are going through.

That said, if everyone here isnt already, our identities are probably now being added to a special database inside a mountain somewhere.