383 / 432 Mopar stroker for the Challenger

Author Topic: 383 / 432 Mopar stroker for the Challenger  (Read 31783 times)

Offline Gwizman

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Re: 383 / 432 Mopar stroker for the Challenger
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2014 - 09:51:21 PM »
Really great input for the 432, with not much out there for one working this project!  I just did the same build early '13 in Jan-Feb. and it was difficult trying to gather much info.  My build included the OEM short rod using Eagle, along with the same Diamond pistons...stayed with the stock rocker assembly with fresh shafts & rockers.  The 440 Source heads worked out perfect, probably left a few ponies out there without port/polish...just gasket match and back-cut valves.  Everything went together nice using a trimmed 440 OEM crank that required the counterweights cut along with mains downsized for the 383.

I went with a little more cam, a custom grind Comp made with 274/280 dur & 505/519 lift on a 110.  The engine could really take more, but this one works very good with tons of low-end torque and pulls all the way up.  The dyno showed some stall on HP at the top, possibly heads holding us back (along with the mild cam).  I run a good idle, have A/C blowing in the summer, and ran 12's with the first track Vintage day on 355's and 727.  It will do better, still upsizing carb from 780 Holley to 800dp with larger secondary venturies (have a Demon 825 Mighty for option next).  It takes about as much as I have given it so far, no hesitations anytime you nail it and roasting tires on the street from 30mph rolls with street BFG's.  This build has really made the car a lot of fun, installed in a '70rtse Challenger survivor.  My desire was to stay on the build sheet, give the car some attitude, and utilize OEM accessories with the PB/PS/AC originality.  Still running the factory V-belt drives, all is good, Mopar dist. & air cleaner.  Just think roller valve train and 1.6 rockers could do even better some day soon.  The build with heads ran around $5500 with RPM intake on top, machine shop assembly thru heads.

Your information provided with the pics is good info. for many to use, and making the 383 get some attention out there when showing it can play!  Hemi pan, enlarged oil pick-up...and possibly girdle if you want to keep going up.




Offline femtnmax

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Re: 383 / 432 Mopar stroker for the Challenger
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2014 - 08:00:30 PM »
I went with a little more cam, a custom grind Comp made with 274/280 dur & 505/519 lift on a 110.  The engine could really take more, but this one works very good with tons of low-end torque and pulls all the way up.  The dyno showed some stall on HP at the top, possibly heads holding us back (along with the mild cam). 
Gwiz...thanks for the detailed info on your build.  Sounds like its fun to drive.  Thats what I'm looking for.   My chally has 3.23 gears, PB, and 5200 foot elevation.  I was going to try my mild cam, then add 1.6 rockers to it and see what happens.   IF still too small I may switch to solid cam.   I dream of a roller cam too, and the experimenting with cheaper flat tappet stuff I hope will help dial in the best combo for my setup.
AHH....so you had to cut the crank counterweights down too.   

Gwiz...how much clearance between top of carb and hood underside with the RPM intake?  I assume RT hood.


More 432 build:
I added more info and pic on last post for timing gear bolt install and ring end gap positioning on piston.

As you know for all aspects of engine build Everything must be clean…real clean.  I was asked once how clean…I say clean enough to eat off of.   A fresh engine-stand rebuild should be spotless; a quicky rebuild in the vehicle is a compromise.

Now for pistons/rods installed in their cylinders.
Pistons are all numbered as are their connecting rods.  Piston ‘forward’ direction should match rod ‘inboard/outboard’ direction.  The piston valve notches should be correct for that cylinder and all this should have been checked at the machine shop when the pistons were installed on the rods.
Rod bearing shells numbered and labeled cap or rod; then installed on correct rod.  Remember the rod bearings had to be chamfered to clear the crank journal fillet radii.  Rings laid out in sets for the cylinder the ring gap was fitted to; I place them on numbered locations on paper towels.

Cylinder bores wiped down several times with brake clean.  Wipe each cylinder down round and round several times; for me each time with a fresh paper towel folded over twice and sprayed with cleaner.  I know we cleaned the cylinders before installing the crankshaft, but were doing it again.   Do all 8 cylinders.  Then wipe each cylinder several more times with brake clean and more fresh towels.
The cylinders need to be spotless, NO grease, no lint…nothing but clean.  Earlier I should have emphasized clean when preparing and installing the crank main bearings/crankshaft.  Spotless.  Cleaning every inch of each part provides the opportunity to thoroughly inspect the part.    It is amazing what people don’t see when fixing vehicles.  For example pushrods bent or with big deep gashes in them from rocker arms going bad…and they don’t see it, put it together and break it again.  A good cleaning/inspection can show up a lot of problems.  Run your fingers over all surfaces of every part.

Next spray a light amount of WD40 on paper towel and wipe onto each cylinder.  ATF is also an acceptable lubricant.   They say you want a lubricant that is not so thick that it prevents the piston rings from sealing quickly.   I’m sure there are many opinions of what lubricant to use, or if any is used at all on the cylinders.  To each their own.  I’m always open to new better ideas….progress & technology moves on.

Then a little more WD40 on fresh paper towel and lightly wipe piston skirts before clamping on ring compressor.  With rod bearings installed on rod and rod cap, wipe the bearing surfaces down with your clean finger one last time then lube the bearing shells with assembly lube.  Each wipe with clean finger is followed by cleaning off finger on fresh paper towel or such, then apply lube.

First photo shows ring compressor on piston, rod bearing lubricated and Clevite rod bolt protectors installed to prevent the rod bolt threads from damaging the crankshaft journal during piston install.  The blue Clevite protectors can be rotated as shown so they support the rod bearing.  Doing this prevents the rod bearing from coming loose as piston is pushed into cylinder.  Note that the ring compressor is tightened fairly tight to compress the rings into the piston ring grooves.  Note the piston skirts stick out below the ring compressor, and it is parallel to piston top, not cocked at any amount of angle.

Rotate crankshaft so the rod journal is facing away from the piston/cylinder your working on.  Start piston into cylinder with piston skirts slipped onto cylinder.  Double check the piston is facing ‘forward’.  I pre-label the top of all the pistons so ‘front’ is easy to ID.   For next step I use a rubber hammer filled with lead shot.  With piston just started into cylinder next verify the ring compressor lays flat against the head gasket surface of the engine block.  Using the hammer tap the compressor tool down against the engine block deck surface just to be sure its flush with the block.  Then drive the piston into cylinder with the handle end of the hammer; 3 or 4 firm smacks with the handle will knock the piston into the cylinder.  Too weak a force can leave the piston part way into cylinder and have one of the rings catch on the engine block deck surface.  Then if you don’t spot this mistake the next smack will damage the ring.  Ask me how I know this.

Second photo shows piston just into cylinder bore.   Then looking up from oil pan side of engine, make sure the rod bolt protectors straddle the crank journal.  Then rotate the protectors a little as the piston is further pushed down into the cylinder.  Rotating the protectors allows the piston rod assembly to move on past the crankshaft rod journal.

Third photo shows rod bolt protectors rotated, the rod is moving onto the crank journal.  Then finish tapping piston down into cylinder until rod bearing seats onto crank journal as shown in the next photo.

Fourth photo shows ARP assembly lube being placed onto rod bolts. Wipe the rod bolt threads clean one last time before applying the ARP lube.  I apply the lube after rod cap is slipped into place over rod bolts.
Fifth photo is a reminder that all crank main and rod bearing shells have locator tangs that face each other when the main cap/rod cap is installed correctly.  This means they go on the same side of the crank journal. 
Next photo is a visual check that the rod cap is installed properly as the pair of rod #’s stamped onto the rods should be seen together on same side of the assembled rod.  Then lightly tighten the rod nuts.  Final torque is after all rods are in place.

Last photo shows all pistons/rods installed.  Then torque the rod nuts to final spec.  Feeler gauges can be placed between the rod pairs to help prevent twisting of the rod when the nuts are torqued.   I torque all the rod nuts, then come back and loosen then one by one and retorque, then mark each rod with a yellow grease crayon when done.  Note the main caps have been marked also.  Just a visual double check. 

New rod bolts/nuts need to be cycled several times to pre-stretch the bolts.  If I remember right ARP says cycle 5or6 times WITH assembly lube on clean rod bolt/nut threads.  So prior to installing the rod on the piston assemble the rod&cap, then tighten the rod nuts to spec, then loosen to finger tight and repeat. 

When all the rods are on the crankshaft, check final clearance between rod pairs by placing two feeler gauges between the rods, one each side of the crank journal.   There should be a measurable clearance between the rod pairs.  There are many opinions on what is an acceptable maximum clearance.
The crank should rotate smoothly with all pistons installed.  It will be somewhat stiff to turn due to piston ring friction and grease on the bearings rather than engine oil.

Rod bolt stretch gauges can be used in place of a torque wrench.  These gauges are more accurate than torque wrenches.   I don’t have one.  For my street/strip use a quality, calibrated torque wrench is sufficient IMHO.   Never had any problems; and I’ve had some customers really abuse fresh engine overhauls (ex: logger up in the mountains).  In the past at one of the Direct Connection seminars someone asked about engine break-in; they told us to make 2or3 mid-RPM passes down the track, then go for it…full throttle runs…front wheels off the ground  :bigsmile:





« Last Edit: January 06, 2014 - 10:09:56 PM by femtnmax »
Phil

Offline Gwizman

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Re: 383 / 432 Mopar stroker for the Challenger
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2014 - 11:49:10 PM »
Really great input for the 432, with not much out there for one working this project!  I just did the same build early '13 in Jan-Feb. and it was difficult trying to gather much info.  My build included the OEM short rod using Eagle, along with the same Diamond pistons...stayed with the stock rocker assembly with fresh shafts & rockers.  The 440 Source heads worked out perfect, probably left a few ponies out there without port/polish...just gasket match and back-cut valves.  Everything went together nice using a trimmed 440 OEM crank that required the counterweights cut along with mains downsized for the 383.

I went with a little more cam, a custom grind Comp made with 274/280 dur & 505/519 lift on a 110.  The engine could really take more, but this one works very good with tons of low-end torque and pulls all the way up.  The dyno showed some stall on HP at the top, possibly heads holding us back (along with the mild cam).  I run a good idle, have A/C blowing in the summer, and ran 12's with the first track Vintage day on 355's and 727.  It will do better, still upsizing carb from 780 Holley to 800dp with larger secondary venturies (have a Demon 825 Mighty for option next).  It takes about as much as I have given it so far, no hesitations anytime you nail it and roasting tires on the street from 30mph rolls with street BFG's.  This build has really made the car a lot of fun, installed in a '70rtse Challenger survivor.  My desire was to stay on the build sheet, give the car some attitude, and utilize OEM accessories with the PB/PS/AC originality.  Still running the factory V-belt drives, all is good, Mopar dist. & air cleaner.  Just think roller valve train and 1.6 rockers could do even better some day soon.  The build with heads ran around $5500 with RPM intake on top, machine shop assembly thru heads.

Your information provided with the pics is good info. for many to use, and making the 383 get some attention out there when showing it can play!  Hemi pan, enlarged oil pick-up...and possibly girdle if you want to keep going up.

 :clueless: Just tried to get you a measurement, do have the rally hood with no spacer plate on top while running a Holley 800dp/4780 and OEM air cleaner w/o snorkels (just two holes like the 340 four-barrel type that another friend is running on his '71-383 w/ RPM).  Looks like 10.25" to the front edge of the cleaner, 11.50" to the rear edge and the center dome is about a half inch higher.  These measurements are taken off the frt/rear valley pan bars, running rubber "Mighty" mounts on  engine mounts.  I have put the 3" chrome cleaner with drop base, and not much room left at all...but don't hit.

Offline femtnmax

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Re: 383 / 432 Mopar stroker for the Challenger
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2014 - 09:01:38 PM »
Thanks Gwiz, I'll do some checking.
No snow out west so sold the snowmobile, and sold some left over small block parts.  Now have $$ to continue this engine build.
first photo...Put a couple of punch marks side by side on each half of the oil pump.  Then took it apart and cleaned all the pieces, then lubed moving parts with oil, and light coating of wheel bearing red grease on the two piece pump impeller gearset so it will draw vacuum to pull oil from oilpan and self prime when I run electric drill to prime engine.  I have occasionally found metal shavings in new oil pumps...thats why I always take them apart and clean, inspect, and lube them.  Then there is no question that you have a ready to run oil pump.
second photo...enlarged slots in windage tray to allow more oil to leave the tray top.  Direct Connection had us adding another row of slots, but larger slots should be fine for my use.
third photo...installed oil slinger on crankshaft, placing it against the timing chain gear, then chain cover goes on.  The slinger has a slight cone shape, the cone faces forward to keep chain oil off the front crank seal.
fourth photo...shows speedy sleeve on crank damper.  the sleeve covers the wear groove on the damper where the original oil seal wore down the damper.  So now the new oil seal will ride against the smooth surface of the speedy sleeve.
fifth photo...shows tightening the crank damper bolt.  Before installing the timing chain cover, with the seal installed in the cover, wipe a little grease in the space between the two seal lips, then apply a little oil to the speedy sleeve.  Then the chain cover is installed, rubber mallet drives the damper part way on, then slowly turn in the damper bolt to draw the damper the rest of the way on to crankshaft.  Then rotate the crank and place a block of wood between the front-most crank counterweight and engine block so damper bolt can be torqued to spec.

Then rotate crank CW on around to #1 cylinder top center firing position, ready for oil pump drive/distributor install.  Look at the cam lobes for #1 cylinder...want the compression stroke piston at top dead center.   If you go to far, next is the power stroke, followed by the exhaust stroke where the first lobe on the cam will come around to 'open' the #1 exhaust valve.  Watching the cam lobes, both lobes will be on the base circle (no valve lift) and this will help determine #1 top dead center.
Don't mean to over explain...just putting the info out for those that may need it.  Thats what this whole thing is about...something for everyone.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014 - 11:27:47 AM by femtnmax »
Phil

Offline femtnmax

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Re: 383 / 432 Mopar stroker for the Challenger
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2014 - 08:27:47 PM »
Cleaned the OEM rocker shafts.  The insides had slight old oil deposits, and it did not hurt to clean them.  Once again at least I know they are clean inside and out.
Sanded the contact areas where the rocker arms road against the shafts with 600 grit wet/dry sandpaper.  Removed the pressed-in end plugs from each shaft by pushing in on the plugs with a punch/hammer then pushing out thru the bolt holes in the shafts.  The plugs came out easily.  Then pushed an oil galley brush, 11/16 diameter by 32 inch long, thru the length of each shaft several times in both directions, flushing with solvent each time.  Spun a drill bit thru each rocker arm oil hole in each shaft, and added a chamfer to each hole to help distribute oil to the rocker arms.  Wiped dry the inside oil passages by pushing a rolled up length of paper towel ahead of the galley brush, again in each direction as required to finish cleaning.

Cost to rebuild the OEM Mopar 906 heads is as follows:
Labor
resurface 2 heads         $135
install & hone thinwall guides       64
install hard exhaust seats       80
4 angle valve job           135
clean  & mag check             30
      Labor total  $444
Parts
Ferrea F5054 intake valve (2.08 diam)           13.17 each = 105
Ferrea F5053 exhaust valve  (1.81 diam)   13.17 each = 105
Thinwall guides   3.00 each =      48
Exhaust seats      10.00 each =    80
Valve springs, CompCam 911-16    87
Spring retainers, 7*, Crower 87063-16   68      
Valve locks, 7*, Crane 99098-1      32
Valve stem seals, positive PFT       20
      Parts total  $545
            Total 906 head rebuild cost  $989

Not much cheaper than aftermarket heads, which are never ready ‘out of the box’.   Preparing them for use can include:  Replace all or some of the following: valve springs, spring retainers, and valve locks. Then hone the guides to fit, and maybe touch up the valve seats.


Over the last few weeks worked on porting the 906 head intake & exhaust ports.  I followed information published on the following internet sites:
Part 1, big block heads
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/5115_cylinder_heads/
Part 2, big block heads
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/5118_cylinder_heads_ii/
Part 3, big block heads
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/5120_cylinder_heads_iii/
Stage V
http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/bb/55.html
stage V head porting
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/howto/mopp_0106_how_to_install_ported_stage_v_heads/

I also compared the 906 intake port floor/short turn to Dart 200cc and 230cc Iron Eagle heads.  I did not measure the 906 intake port volume, but research suggested a volume of 180-200cc, so similar to the smaller Dart.  The two Dart heads had similar short turn height, and this height was a little less than the 906 port.  On the two Dart heads the amount of short turn ‘lay back’ from the peak of the short turn to the valve seat cuts was nearly identical.  Both Dart heads had much larger bowl areas than the 906, so they are slowing the flow down more after going over a ‘tall’ short turn.  So I followed the internet sites and the Dart floor shape to arrive at a final port shape.  I made a template of floor/short turn and used it to form the ports.
I know its not apples to apples, and access to a flow bench would obviously help a lot.  There is a Superflow bench 450 miles from me, the cost to check the heads and balance port flow was reasonable, but the shipping or travel cost to get the heads there and back was the killer.  The flow bench money spent on top of rebuilding the OEM heads might as well buy aftermarket heads. 
I’m not expecting maximum performance from my 906’s.  I did the best port work I could with the limited info available, and I’m doing the work myself which is the whole idea in my book.   

The attached photo shows the intake port floor for the 906 head, with the dark wire showing the uncut original port floor shape.  The Dart 230cc floor is also shown in comparison.  I did not lay back the 906 short turn quite as much as the Dart: I was trying to be conservative.  The bottom of each template is the cylinder head deck surface.  The notch at left end of template curve is the intake manifold gasket.
The cylinder heads are at the machine shop to finish cutting the exhaust seats.  I’ll have photos when I get them back.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014 - 08:57:50 PM by femtnmax »
Phil

Offline femtnmax

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Re: 383 / 432 Mopar stroker for the Challenger
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2014 - 07:45:26 PM »
The Dodge Charger forum has a discussion of engine overheating issues affecting many big block members.  Some of the problems were related to the early 440Source water pump housing castings.  I had purchased a 440s pump housing last year, and removed it the other day to inspect the part.  The early castings had an issue with insufficient flow thru the casting causing engine overheating.   I looked at my newer casting and compared the inlet/outlet minimum cross section areas to the front & rear main coolant passages between the engine block and cylinder heads. 
My housing is a 440source water pump housing with passenger side lower outlet; purchased early 2013 and has the 440s logo on the front drivers side.   The housing internal passages at their most restrictive location had cross section area equal to or about 10% less than the Mopar minimum area.   I enlarged these locations which should help coolant flow.  I will be using a Milodon high volume aluminum water pump and matching HV thermostat.  They were both highly recommended on the charger forum.
The first photo shows the most restrictive location in the ports. So maybe this is better than the earlier housings.
Now look at the second photo.  The problem I have with the "new" 440s housing is the drivers side water passages are cast closer together than the passenger side, and also the drivers side hole location pair is too high relative to the hole pair in the engine block so as a result there is only 1/16 inch of gasket separating the inlet flow from the outlet flow.  The black felt tip lines on the masking tape are the engine block hole locations.  IMO this is unacceptable. 
To increase the gasket area between the holes, I lowered the housing vs the engine block by egging out all 6 of the housing fastener holes that attach the housing to the engine block.  Doing this lowered the housing vs engine block by about 1/8 inch.  I will take it back apart once the sealant sets, and run it this way if its ok.  I also bought a nice OEM iron Mopar housing just in case.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2014 - 07:49:12 PM by femtnmax »
Phil

Offline todd383

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Re: 383 / 432 Mopar stroker for the Challenger
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2014 - 06:55:32 PM »
nice build! my 383 is being done to 489 cu. inches. 4.25 stroke!  .030 over bore. with stealth heads rpm intake and going back to exhaust manifolds! should be interesting.

Offline femtnmax

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Re: 383 / 432 Mopar stroker for the Challenger
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2014 - 08:36:33 PM »
nice build! my 383 is being done to 489 cu. inches. 4.25 stroke!  .030 over bore. with stealth heads rpm intake and going back to exhaust manifolds! should be interesting.
Yours should be a real runner!!!   What cam will you be using?  What are your plans for traction improvements??   Or maybe leave it as is for fun with the tires like I did with my GTX.

Here is the port work on the 906 heads.
First pic is chamber view.
Unshrouded the valves up to near the head gasket, taking into account where the engine block cylinder met the cylinder head combustion chamber.   There was not much blending that could be done without having the combustion chamber larger than the block cylinder.
Blended the spark plug boss for smooth crosswise flow from intake valve, and blended the edges of cup at base of spark plug hole, between plug hole and chamber/valve seat area.  Plug blend is said to be worth up to 5 cfm.
For detonation prevention smoothed combustion chamber flat area opposite spark plug, and blended this area up to the head gasket surface.  Left the rest of chamber rough to promote fuel atomization.
Note anti-reversion step in the intake port bowl close to exhaust port.  This is to help reduce exhaust flow up/into intake port during intake/exhaust valve overlap.

Second pic is exhaust port bowl
Blended the hard exhaust seat into the port bowl.  Shortened the guide height .125 inch to enlarge the port cross section area.  Flattened the bump on the port roof out near the port exit.  Blended the short turn from the exhaust seat to port exit.    Widened port wall starting just past guide on cylinder center side of exh port, and widened and blended the exh port wall on cylinder-wall side of exh port and blended this back to behind the smoothed guide boss. 
Third pic is exhaust port outlet
Did not enlarge port exit at all.  Blended all port shaping stopping just short of port exit.

Fourth pic is intake bowl
Removed the original long guide boss back to near the guide hole, leaving a slight hump of guide boss along port roof from near its beginning at intake manifold to avoid punching thru to shallow trough on valve spring side of head casting.
Widened the port roof on each side of guide boss by removing material from the guide boss, very little removed from port wall opposite the boss…again to avoid punching thru the port wall.  The final narrow side of port roof  (cylinder centerline side) is as wide as the OEM ‘wide’ side (cylinder wall side) was originally.
Left the port walls rough with 60 grit finish to promote fuel air mixing.  Liquid fuel will separate from the airflow and stick to smooth surfaces, so I leave the intake port surfaces rough.
Anti reversion step is a remainder of the 75 degree throat cut.  Left this where intake port comes up along side the exhaust seat.  This cut removes the same material as using the Mopar templates.  Intake port throat diameter is 89% of valve diameter, to go with .530 valve lift.
Was careful to not completely blend the depression in the bowl at lower left of photo where cylinder center wall blends into bowl. 

Fifth pic is intake port short turn
To follow the Dart 230cc short turn shape, the highest point of the 906 head short turn was lowered .05 inch with a cut right at the center of the port, using mechanics wire to verify the cut depth.  Then blended & widened this center cut out to each side.  By the time the cut was finished the height of the short turn had been reduced by .10 inch.  Between the short turn peak and valve seat made a felt tip mark .2 inches away from the 75 degree throat cut and made a cut in the center of  the port .05 inch deep with this cut blending to nothing when it reached the felt tip mark; blended this cut to each side following the arc of the valve seat.  Then blended this cut into the previous cut at the peak of the short turn.  New lower short turn height was blended upstream just over half way to port entrance at intake manifold gasket surface.

Last pic is intake port pair
Removed some of the head bolt bump on cylinder wall side of port.  Used my home-made E-tool to leave .20 inch of material at this location. 
Widened the pushrod pinch only enough to clean up casting errors.  Port entrance was measured to and squared up to Edelbrock DP4B intake manifold ports.

threw in a pic of the OEM 906 chamber view just for reference.  I think I made a decent improvement.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014 - 08:54:44 PM by femtnmax »
Phil

Offline todd383

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Re: 383 / 432 Mopar stroker for the Challenger
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2014 - 08:25:21 AM »
i am running a custom comp. solid cam from dwayne porter,  566 lift and 242-252 dur. @ .050 and 114 LSA for the exhaust manifolds. I put the polyglas tires on and went back to a 2800 stall speed converter, and 355 gears.  I just want it back to stock looking as much as possible. Just want it more streetable, want to drive it more. I know it will have traction problems but i dont care. LOL!

Offline femtnmax

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Re: 383 / 432 Mopar stroker for the Challenger
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2014 - 08:28:08 PM »
i am running a custom comp. solid cam from dwayne porter,  566 lift and 242-252 dur. @ .050 and 114 LSA for the exhaust manifolds. I put the polyglas tires on and went back to a 2800 stall speed converter, and 355 gears.  I just want it back to stock looking as much as possible. Just want it more streetable, want to drive it more. I know it will have traction problems but i dont care. LOL!
Should be a blast to drive:)
If I may throw out some ideas....do what you can with the rear leaf springs to promote hookup.  I played around with spring stack numbers and lengths on a 340 duster...the rear tires left two solid lines in first and second gear withOUT a locking differential.   Also maybe add some weight over the rear axle or in the trunk to help hookup.  You'll have so much torque the weight will never be noticed.  On my Challenger I moved the battery (school bus size like the old Mopar SuperStockers) to the trunk right hand corner and did some other changes...ended up with and extra 140 pounds over the rear tires by shifting weight from the front of the car to the rear.   Some of the factory sponsored Mopars added steel plates over the fuel tank, said it was to protect the tank, but really was to add weight over the rear tires.
:2cents:


Working on valve prep.
First pic is intake valve 30 degree backcut, which is added just upstream of the 45 degree valve face.   The maximum angle that airflow can pass over without flow separation is 15 degree steps.  So the 30 steps to the 45.    Don’t want flow separation because it actually reduces the flow cross section area over the valve.  The 30 degree backcut is said to increase the port flow the most considering how easy it is to accomplish, so it is well worth doing on any engine build.   There are arguments for/against doing this backcut on the exhaust valve because doing it helps increase exhaust reversion from the exhaust port back into the combustion chamber and across into the intake port.  I did NOT add the backcut to the exhaust valves. Exhaust reversion back up the intake port is what gives the engine that lump lump sound at idle speed.

Second pic is 45 degree chamfer added to backside of intake valve.  This chamfer helps promote a “cone” shaped flow over/around the valve head as the fuel air mix passes over the valve.  A better cone shaped flow helps reduce flow separation on the backside of the valve.  This flow “smoothing” increases the rate of flow into the cylinder as the piston drops on the engines intake stroke.

Third pic is rounded corner added to the “margin” of the exhaust valve.  The cut is called a radius margin.  This smoothing helps the exhaust flow from the cylinder pass around and over the exhaust valve head, thus the rounded corner helps promote a “cone” shaped flow over the exhaust valve.  Again the idea is to increase the flow rate.

Fourth pic is Crane 1.6 rocker arm, with valve closed, and .080 lash cap installed on the tip of the valve.  I wanted to use a .06 lash cap, but there was much more selection of caps with .08 thickness, and allowance to clear the valve locks/keepers.  So the initial contact point of the rocker arm on the lash cap is still more than .02 inch away from the edge of the valve stem under the cap…this is considered acceptable by Smokey Yunick as he stated in his book “Power Secrets”.

UPDATE, March 2014
some folks have had lash caps come out when running hydraulic cams, due to the lifters bleeding down and letting the cap come off the end of the valve stem.  The suggestion was made to only use lash caps with solid lifter cams.  I will stick with that information, thus no lash caps for me at this point.

Fifth pic is Crane 1.6 rocker arm at max valve lift.  The contact between rocker arm and valve stem/lash cap has swept from the intake side of the valve stem to just past the stem midpoint.  No return scrubbing occurs now as it did without the lashcap.  Note also the valve spring retainer to valve stem seal final clearance, measured at .10 inch with an extra thick (.20 inch) valve seal for mockup.  This is at .530 valve lift.  The valve guide height was cut down .10 inch on all 16 guides; without this cut the retainers would have hit the valve seals.

Last pic shows the trim cuts to tops of all the valve guides.  The OEM casting is never centered over the actual valve guide...the trim cut centers the guide OD and ID so the valve stem seal is centered on the valve stem.  You can see how the closest guide in the photo is really off centered, and the trim cut fixes the problem.   I have seen where without this guide cut the seal can be pulled off-center enough to let oil past the seal.  The oil can then end up in the combustion chamber thus increasing the chance of detonation.  This trim cut also can be used to shorten the valve guide length, which is what I did.
I have been to well respected machine shops that boasted about their quality machine work, the race engines they build, etc.....and they did NOT do this guide cut.  Stupid is the only word for it.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014 - 06:56:15 PM by femtnmax »
Phil

Offline femtnmax

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Re: 383 / 432 Mopar stroker for the Challenger
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2014 - 07:36:50 PM »
First photo is intake valve face contact check with cylinder head seat.  I lightly lapped the valve face with the valve seat; both are at a 45 degree angle.  The contact shown on the valve face is .05 inch wide.   The narrow contact width helps cut thru any hard oil deposits that may accumulate on the valve face over time.  Note the 30 degree backcut next to the valve face contact pattern.
The intake valve seal should be one that limits the amount of oil that passes down the valve stem and into the combustion chamber. There is a high ‘vacuum’ created on the intake stroke, and without a good intake valve seal oil will be drawn in to the combustion chamber. Teflon type or similar work well, the old umbrella types don’t restrict the flow of oil enough.   

Second pic is exhaust valve face contact check.  The contact pattern is .080 inch wide.  The extra contact width on the exhaust valves helps transfer heat from the exhaust valve to the cylinder head.   During the “power” cycle of the 4 stroke engine, the two hottest parts in the combustion chamber are the exhaust valve and spark plug ground electrode.  Either of these parts can cause the fuel/air mixture to ignite/detonate prematurely, so keeping them cool is important.   The exhaust valve seal can be the old-fashioned umbrella type because some oil on the valve stem/guide helps heat conduct from the valve stem to guide.

Third pic is my new improved cylinder head gasket mockup using .04 thick brass strips, in this case to check the intake manifold port alignment with the cylinder heads. 

Fourth pic is thinner brass strips under the intake manifold and the mockup is complete.  The two cylinder heads were attached to the block with 2 fasteners each, then the intake manifold was set in place as shown in the pic.  A felt tip mark was drawn at the junction between the intake manifold and cylinder head at each intake port pair, and fore/aft alignment was marked as well.  The intake manifold was then removed.

Fifth pic   On the cylinder head the distance from the felt tip line to port opening was measured as shown in the pic and compared to the measurement on the intake manifold.   Front to back measurements were also compared. 
The old Edelbrock DP4B intake ports were very well shaped, perfectly rectangular with perfect corner radii, and their shape matched the Fel Pro intake valley pan exactly with no trimming.   A slight amount of blend work was required on the cylinder heads to match the intake manifold ports.
Phil

Offline femtnmax

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Re: 383 / 432 Mopar stroker for the Challenger
« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2014 - 07:29:57 PM »
Checking out amount to finish cutting the exhaust valve hard seats.
The exhaust valve seat height vs the intake seats should have the exhaust seats equal to or lower than the intake seats to help reduce exhaust gas reversion up into the intake ports.  The installed height of the exhaust hard seats did not leave enough seat material to allow their seats to be cut down to equal the intake seats.  So the exhaust seats were left at .035 inch above the intake seats; that’s the best we could do.
After the exhaust seats were cut and intake seats lightly touched, the combustion chamber cc’s were checked again, and found to be more than the 86 cc’s I was aiming for.    Both heads were then resurfaced, cut .010 inch to obtain the 86 cc chamber volume.  With this chamber volume, pistons at zero deck, and intake valve closing angle of 61 degrees, the static compression ratio is 9.8:1 and dynamic ratio 8.0:1.  For iron heads, no combustion chamber quench, and wanting to drive from sea level to 10,000 foot elevation with no tuning issues I think these are good numbers.
With both heads resurfaced, the intake manifold port alignment was rechecked vs the cylinder head intake ports.  A top of port chamfer was added to all the cylinder head intake ports to ensure a smooth transition from the intake manifold to cylinder heads.
To correct the valve spring installed height a set of Crane Cams minus .05 inch valve locks resulted in .02-.03 inch shorter height than the spec.  This is ok as the valve springs will loose a little seat/open pressure during early engine use.  I prefer to use valve locks to correct valve spring installed height rather than spring shims between the spring and cylinder head: but the shims can be used.
The valve lifter used for testing valve lift was found to not be holding zero lash.  I relocktited the piston into the lifter to correct the problem.   The maximum valve lift was then rechecked using the .080 lash caps on the valve stems.  Correcting the lifter and adding the lash caps improved the pushrod alignment to the Crane 1.6 ratio iron rocker arms such that the rocker ratio increased to 1.7 ratio at the valve.  The pushrods were pointing more directly toward the rocker arm adjuster during the entire range of motion rather than pointing more and more away from the adjuster, that’s why the ratio improved. So the valve lift with 267/271 seat duration is .542/.547 at zero lash.  That’s right in there with big block Chevy and Ford which both come from the factory with 1.7+ rocker arm ratios.  For example a 1968 Ford 428 has 1.76 rocker ratio, and a Voodoo cam for it with 268 seat duration has .552 lift.
So I sent a note to Crower Cams to see if the cam lobes will work with a 1.7 ratio, and asked about recommended valve lash if I switch to solid lifters on the hydraulic cam.
With the increased valve lift I rechecked the piston to valve clearance.  The clearance came in at .30 inch on both intake and exhaust valves.  Even allowing .10 minimum gap everything looks good.
Photo is of the piston valve clay check.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014 - 08:32:48 PM by femtnmax »
Phil

Offline femtnmax

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Re: 383 / 432 Mopar stroker for the Challenger
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2014 - 07:48:17 PM »
To use mechanical flat tappet lifters on a hydraulic cam I would need to buy longer pushrods, flat tappet lifters, and stiffer valve springs.  The budget doesn’t have room for this right now.  Anyone that is familiar with valve spring requirements when switching from hydraulic to solid can chime in with their knowledge.   
Running the Crane 1.7 rocker ratio would give lift & duration numbers similar to a Voodoo 268 cam for a Ford 428 (the 428 has even higher lift), and the valve springs I have would be correct for that rate of lift/max lift also.
The Crower cam I am using has 267/271 seat duration, and with 1.5 rocker ratio has 220/223 dur at .05 lift, and 478/486 lift.  The 1.7 ratio increases the .05 duration by 6 degrees to 226/229 duration, and the valve lift will increase to near the .542/.547 lift measured with checking springs.
I will break the engine in with the OEM 383 2bbl valve springs and stamped rocker arms, then switch over to the stiffer Comp 911-16 springs.  I’ll run it that way to finish tuning the engine then play with the higher rocker ratio.
First pic shows the OEM valve springs and umbrella exhaust valve stem seal, along with positive nylon seal for the intake valves.  The umbrella seals on the exhaust valve stems lets a little oil onto the valve stems; they need lubrication and cooling.

After the head milling and block decking the OEM pushrods are 0.10 inch longer than ideal for the OEM 1.5 ratio stamped steel rocker arm geometry; even though the Felpro head gaskets are roughly twice as thick as oem.  Just means the hydraulic lifter piston will be further down in the lifter housing.  Checking the hydraulic lifter piston with the cam lobe on base circle the pistons could still be pushed further down inside the lifter so the lifter piston geometry is not at max limit.  This is good.  If I was staying with 1.5 rockers I would buy shorter/stiffer pushrods.  The oem pushrod geometry should be ok if the rpm range is keep at street levels.

I bought ball/cup oil-thru pushrods from Smith Brothers to go with the Crane rocker arms.  These pushrods are 8.0 inches long.  Also will be using Mopar/AMC hydraulic lifters that have pushrod oiling for the AMC engines. This way the pushrod/rocker arm contact will have positive lubrication.  Kept the Mopar rocker shaft oiling as is.
Installed the cylinder heads.  placed a bead of engine oil on each bolt thread and under the bolt head.  Then torqued the head bolts in 3 steps    20,40, then 70 ftlb.  Then went back and one by one loosened and retorqued each head bolt to 70 ftlb.
Finished assembling the long block including Edelbrock DP4B intake manifold and a one inch thick carb heat spacer.  I wanted room for the spacer and was not sure if there was hood clearance for the spacer and Edel RPM intake.  I’ll check it out when the engine is in the car and go from there.  On the Hot Rod magazine intake manifold shoot out the old DP4B intake did better than stock and but not as well as the RPM intake for moderate engine builds.  Second pic is of the long block.
Hope everyone is doing well on their projects.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014 - 12:12:10 PM by femtnmax »
Phil

Offline femtnmax

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Re: 383 / 432 Mopar stroker for the Challenger
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2014 - 07:54:14 PM »
Completed the assembly of the long block.  Port matched the exhaust manifolds to the manifold gaskets, making sure that the manifold port was slightly larger than the cylinder head port opening.  This is to help prevent reversion of the exhaust gas from the manifold back into the exhaust port/combustion chamber.  Cut and fitted the spark plug wires, they were NOT a cut to fit style, but you can remove the distributor cap end connection if your careful and reuse it.  I reset the lengths as required to make a neater plugwire package.  Removed and resealed the thermostat housing using copper RTV sealant that has a color closer to the engine color.  I should not have used blue rtv anywhere, the color stands out too much.
First pic is long block completed, but not the copper rtv yet.

Installed high flow Milodon 180degF thermostat.  Drilled air bypass hole (under 1/8 inch diameter) in the Tstat flange which helps prevent air lock when filling cooling system.  The bypass hole allows air to leave the engine block/heads as coolant is added to the radiator. I do this to all thermostats I install regardless of vehicle/engine make.   I deburr and slightly chamfer the hole on both sides by hand turning a larger diameter bit in the hole.  Some tstats come with a little shaker valve already installed, thats where I got the idea.
Second pic is Tstat with air bypass hole.

Installed pilot bushing in flywheel end of crankshaft.  An OEM sized bushing fit correctly into the Scat forged crankshaft.  Lightly tapped the bushing into the cranksaft to start it into place, then held a ½ inch drive extension against the bushing and firm taps with a brass hammer drove the bushing into place.  Lubed the bushing with wheel bearing grease with enough to coat the bearing surface and a little more….too much grease and it will come back out and could get onto the clutch disc.
Installed the McLeod steel flywheel.  With a breaker bar/socket on the crankshaft front damper bolt, and the Bbar handle jammed in place to prevent movement, the flywheel fasteners were installed and torqued to spec.  I loctite the flywheel fasteners with two rows of blue loctite on the threads of each fastener.  Then cleaned the flywheel clutch disc surface several times over with clean paper towels sprayed with brakeclean.

Then installed the clutch disc and pressure plate.  Again clean the pressure plate disc surface and the whole outside of the Pplate with brake clean.  Don’t want any grease getting onto the clutch disc. 
I do not use an input shaft pilot tool to center the clutch disc.  Instead install the disc and pressure plate with 3 fasteners partially threaded into the flywheel.  Leave the fasteners just loose enough such that the clutch disc can be nudged around between the flywheel and pressure plate.  With the ends of your fingers feel the offset of the disc vs the pressure plate.  The disc is usually slightly smaller in diameter than the pressure plate clamping surface.  Feel the offset at the three locations where you can get your fingers in to check the disc offset.  When the offset feels the same at all 3 locations, then the disc is centered correctly.
Third pic is with your fingers checking clutch disc offset.

With the disc centered, then lightly tighten the 3 pressure plate fasteners enough to prevent the disc from moving, then install all the other fasteners.  Slowly tighten them in a cross wise pattern, slowly and evenly drawing in the pressure plate against the flywheel so as to not warp the pressure plate.  I apply a single row of blue loctite to the pplate fastener threads.
I have used this method of installing ALL clutch discs for upteen different brands of vehicles over the past 35+ years and the disc alignment with the crankshaft pilot bushing has always been accurate enough to install the transmission without any issues.
Fourth pic is looking at clutch disc alignment with crankshaft pilot bushing.

Fifth pic clutch is ready to go, and engine set aside for now.  Need the snow to melt so I can push in the Challenger.  Also have to replace the starter ring gear on the work truck…I did not know the starter lost a tooth, and that caused damage to the ring gear teeth as well.   After 10 years of use I had decided to inspect the starter, and there it was damaged and the ring gear too.  Good thing I looked at it, the remaining teeth would have completely failed eventually…sometimes I’m 100+ miles from home on a job and hate to have any issues.

« Last Edit: March 08, 2014 - 08:13:11 PM by femtnmax »
Phil

Offline brads70

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Re: 383 / 432 Mopar stroker for the Challenger
« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2014 - 07:55:22 AM »
Looks great, good job!  I have the same water pump housing and I do experience overheating ( I posted in the DC forum too) when sitting in traffic on a hot day for more than 30 minutes or so. I'm going to try Neil's advice and disconnect the vac. advance and see if that cures it.
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0