3.58" cranks in 318 with 308 heads and stock height pistons (318 mains)

Author Topic: 3.58" cranks in 318 with 308 heads and stock height pistons (318 mains)  (Read 16204 times)

Offline cudaracer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
Re: 3.58" cranks in 318 with 308 heads and stock height pistons (318 mains)
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2013 - 11:12:09 PM »
OK, here is the latest.

Using the piston and crank mentioned above, I am 0.031" in the bore, and with a a 0.080" gasket, up from 0.028" currently, my P2V actually improves.  So it is a done deal.

My only concern then, is having this assy balanced. Does this raise any flags in that regards?




Offline cudaracer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
Re: 3.58" cranks in 318 with 308 heads and stock height pistons (318 mains)
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2013 - 11:25:21 PM »
Summit has these low comp height pistons for cheap.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-1278-030


I ask again in hopes that someone can tell me if my stock 318 rods will be OK for this stroker, to the tune of about 370 hp

Offline HP2

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 4478
Re: 3.58" cranks in 318 with 308 heads and stock height pistons (318 mains)
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2013 - 09:42:25 AM »
Again, this is all a paper exercise and your actual values will vary, probably to the big side. Trying to do a mathmatical calculation of valve clearance is a very big risk to take. I'd also think trading out the head gasket from .028 to .080 simply for valve clearance is giving up compression and any potential quench effects, which is a anotherer problem for making things run efficiently. You CAN introduce detonation at lower compression ratios with less quench than higher ratios with better quench. You cam timing is also a big factor in all of this as well.

For balancing, only the machinist can tell for certain if there are any issues. As truck pistons, your slugs may be on the heavy side. If they have to add any mallory to get the balance right, your looking at added cost. They will need to match all the pistons, all the rods - big end and small end, and then the crank to the reciprocating weight. There is a fair amount of labor in this activity, so I'd guess a complete balance job to be $300-500 without mallory. At that point, you are only a couple hundred $$ away from or almost the same cast as simply buying a 390 stoker kit from Hughes.

You stock rods should be fine for this application, if you pursue it. I'd have them shot peened, new bolts, and resized. When I use stock rods, I also polish the beams and balance them. Of course, that all adds more cost to your conversion. I've used stock rods up to 425 horse builds without too many issues. All small block rods are forged steel and of higher quality than many other brands factory "performance" rods.

Just curious, what is the motivation behind this exercise? If your trying to stroke the engine on the cheap, it really isn't going to save you much unless you can do  A LOT of the work yourself like all the component balancing and bob weight calculations and quench clearancing. When its all said and done, you might save yourself a few hundred buck and give up 30 cubic inches to cobble together your own combination compared to buying a kit. Now, does that mean you have to do all this work, no. You certainly could just put it all together and hope for the best. But in that case, you may end up with lots of work that produces less satisfactory results than if you simply rebuilt the 318 with better pistons to match the heads you have.


Offline cudaracer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
Re: 3.58" cranks in 318 with 308 heads and stock height pistons (318 mains)
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2013 - 11:47:36 AM »
Again, this is all a paper exercise and your actual values will vary, probably to the big side. Trying to do a mathmatical calculation of valve clearance is a very big risk to take. I'd also think trading out the head gasket from .028 to .080 simply for valve clearance is giving up compression and any potential quench effects, which is a anotherer problem for making things run efficiently. You CAN introduce detonation at lower compression ratios with less quench than higher ratios with better quench. You cam timing is also a big factor in all of this as well.

For balancing, only the machinist can tell for certain if there are any issues. As truck pistons, your slugs may be on the heavy side. If they have to add any mallory to get the balance right, your looking at added cost. They will need to match all the pistons, all the rods - big end and small end, and then the crank to the reciprocating weight. There is a fair amount of labor in this activity, so I'd guess a complete balance job to be $300-500 without mallory. At that point, you are only a couple hundred $$ away from or almost the same cast as simply buying a 390 stoker kit from Hughes.

You stock rods should be fine for this application, if you pursue it. I'd have them shot peened, new bolts, and resized. When I use stock rods, I also polish the beams and balance them. Of course, that all adds more cost to your conversion. I've used stock rods up to 425 horse builds without too many issues. All small block rods are forged steel and of higher quality than many other brands factory "performance" rods.

Just curious, what is the motivation behind this exercise? If your trying to stroke the engine on the cheap, it really isn't going to save you much unless you can do  A LOT of the work yourself like all the component balancing and bob weight calculations and quench clearancing. When its all said and done, you might save yourself a few hundred buck and give up 30 cubic inches to cobble together your own combination compared to buying a kit. Now, does that mean you have to do all this work, no. You certainly could just put it all together and hope for the best. But in that case, you may end up with lots of work that produces less satisfactory results than if you simply rebuilt the 318 with better pistons to match the heads you have.
8


Thanks for the reply.
My motivation is of course cost savings.

So far I have,

$350 for heavy duty crank
$250 for pistons
$250 to balance

With the lower comp height of the piston, weight is same or less.

Everyone wants at least $2K for a stroker kit, balanced, and sometimes you have to machine block for 390 kit.

Is that a better kit capable of much more hp? Sure. Do I care. No.
As far as P2V, I am running it now with cam, and new setup will get me a bit more clearance, and 9.4:1

win-win-win



Offline HP2

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 4478
Re: 3.58" cranks in 318 with 308 heads and stock height pistons (318 mains)
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2013 - 03:17:52 PM »

My motivation is of course cost savings.

So far I have,

$350 for heavy duty crank
$250 for pistons
$250 to balance


Your at $850 plus shipping costs.

Crank kits are more complete than that. Assuming bargain prices for standard performance parts, don't forget;

Main bearings  $50
Rod bearings   $50
Rod bolts        $60
Main bolts      $40
Piston rings    $75
Rod resize      $150
Press piston pins $40


Your at $1315 assuming you don't do any performance reconditioning of the rods like peening or polishing, your balance job includes the big and small ends of the rods, the crank does not require any mallory, and your block height is to blueprint spec to acheive the compression height you've calculated. Add 20% if you step up for good performance versions of any of those.

So you may save $600 to create a Mopar 348. Keep us posted on progress andonce its all together,  try to make a pass down the local strip to put some numbers to it all.


Offline jimynick

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 4512
Re: 3.58" cranks in 318 with 308 heads and stock height pistons (318 mains)
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2013 - 11:57:28 PM »
cudaracer, I know you're stoked on this 318 build, but HP2 has a very valid point and you ignore it at your financial and engine-life peril. What is it that you're seeking here? Horsepower, uniqueness, or what? I get your point about being able to put a combination together, but at the end of the day, without trying to be offensive, you're going to an amazing amount of work, effort and expense to basically re-invent the wheel. Just out of idle curiosity, why not just build a 360? or 340, or any of the other combos that are cheaper and have more bang for the buck than where you're going? In the final analysis, it's your engine and your dough, but you DID ask for comment. For what it's worth, here in the frozen north, I recently priced a stroker Eagle kit for a 340 that had the 5140 SIR rods, good bolts, rings, bearings (main and rod), cast steel crank and forged 9.7:1 pistons for $1100 before taxes. you can also buy it with a balancer, flex plate and balanced for a few hundred more. Just sayin'   :2cents:

Offline cudaracer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
Re: 3.58" cranks in 318 with 308 heads and stock height pistons (318 mains)
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2013 - 10:59:47 AM »
cudaracer, I know you're stoked on this 318 build, but HP2 has a very valid point and you ignore it at your financial and engine-life peril. What is it that you're seeking here? Horsepower, uniqueness, or what? I get your point about being able to put a combination together, but at the end of the day, without trying to be offensive, you're going to an amazing amount of work, effort and expense to basically re-invent the wheel. Just out of idle curiosity, why not just build a 360? or 340, or any of the other combos that are cheaper and have more bang for the buck than where you're going? In the final analysis, it's your engine and your dough, but you DID ask for comment. For what it's worth, here in the frozen north, I recently priced a stroker Eagle kit for a 340 that had the 5140 SIR rods, good bolts, rings, bearings (main and rod), cast steel crank and forged 9.7:1 pistons for $1100 before taxes. you can also buy it with a balancer, flex plate and balanced for a few hundred more. Just sayin'   :2cents:


Thank you for the reply, and taking the time to try and help my stubborn self. 
I hope you can take a few more moments to read what I say below, and follow up with any more new or same advice, from any and all.


Going the 340 route seems extreme to me, because of the following reasons to ME:

1.   Cost for a complete short block
2.   Minimal gains relative to 318 with same hardware
3.   High revving 340 makes less sense in an automatic 904, then it does in a 4 speed manual, that is, well, more fun to rev.
4.   Did I mention cost

Going the 360 route seems slightly less silly, mostly because of slightly less cost,  but I still need new pan, motor mounts, balancers, etc.
Additionally for both these paths, I have nowhere to store my 318 block, which I would like to keep.

Now I know we can dissect every choice, cost for cost going either  route, but at the end of the day, all I really need to do is add new pistons for my 318 because of low CR.   It is an original block with 84K miles, that runs great with good compression.  That’s it.  And keeping  the original has some merit to me.   Additionally, not seeking a max HP path, allows another check in the 318 box.  But of course while I got it out, I will want to rework it, which I would do with ANY used 340/360 block I receive, that I also have to spend money to purchase in the first place.  And again, the storage of block issue.  Wife hates the idea of a block laying around our new garage.

So, with all that processing in my mind, I see that I can now also add the stroker crank (3.58”) to the build, which will require balancing to ANY new pistons I get, plus slightly reworked original rods.  I am targeting 370hp and 410 ftlbs with that setup and keeping my existing upper end, which consists of 308 cast 360ci heads, 66cc chambers (which nets me 9.5:1 with a flat top) and 0.477/0.488” cam. 

I also like that I am at 348ci, which sounds like a bored 340, and I have more torque than a 340, something I need more than high rpm hp.  I also have a lighter rotating assy (smaller bore pistons) than a 360, so there is some rev factor in there, right?

Keep the advice coming.
I am not fixed on this path, but it seems best in my circumstances.

Thanks.

Offline Road_Runner

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1825
  • Mopar Owner & Standard Bearer Since 1974
Re: 3.58" cranks in 318 with 308 heads and stock height pistons (318 mains)
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2013 - 04:21:54 PM »
 :popcorn:

I'm glad I'm not the only one trying to make this exact same decision.  I'm definitely in a state of Analysis Paralysis right now though.  I've got to pick a path and go with it.  375 hp & 410 TQ would be about perfect in the Barracuda, so if that's attainable easily enough with the 318 not sure why I would pull it.  Also, the best place to store the original block would seem to be between the front fenders. 

Later, Jim
1970 383 Roadrunner Tor Red
1973 318 Barracuda Mist Green
2014 Mustang GT/CS Convertible All Black

Offline cudaracer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
I like your thinking, roadrunner.


Offline Road_Runner

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1825
  • Mopar Owner & Standard Bearer Since 1974
I like your thinking, roadrunner.

Your comment about storing extra blocks is dead-on, too.  I've moved blocks, transmissions & rear ends the last two times we've moved.  I REALLY want to be finished with these cars so I can shed a lot of this extra stuff before I ever move again.  Moving short blocks from house to house is a real pain.  To me it boils down to either leaving the original driveline in the car or change everything which seems a shame for a car that has survived like it is for 40 years.  My Barracuda has the original 318/904 & 8 3/4 that it came with so if I change one thing like the engine, I'm going to be looking at the 904 next thinking either 727 or manual then I'll probably upgrade the rear, and so on ....  If I change the heads, intake, crank etc. I'm going to put all the parts I pull out in a plastic tubs and moving & storing that stuff is doable, so like you the 348 sounds pretty cool and should still be lots of fun out of 'just' a 318.  Let us know how it goes and when I finally get started I'll do the same.

Later, Jim
1970 383 Roadrunner Tor Red
1973 318 Barracuda Mist Green
2014 Mustang GT/CS Convertible All Black

Offline HP2

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 4478
 :chatting:

Hello Mancini?  Yes, I'd like to order a 318/390 stroker kit. Yes, the new one offered at $1549. Ground freight is fine. Thanks!   


 :woohoo:


With this new kit, you are now saving $200 for a 348 build compared to going with a pre-packaged 390 kit.

Offline 73restomod

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 528
:chatting:

Hello Mancini?  Yes, I'd like to order a 318/390 stroker kit. Yes, the new one offered at $1549. Ground freight is fine. Thanks!   


 :woohoo:


With this new kit, you are now saving $200 for a 348 build compared to going with a pre-packaged 390 kit.

Don't forget to add 1500 for decent heads to feed a 390.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Offline HP2

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 4478
Don't forget to add 1500 for decent heads to feed a 390.


True and if I was building these, that would be the first consideration over even stroking. However, for the two builds being contemplated here, it isn't a concern.

Of course if you use it in a street car that never spins over 5000 rpm, you may never notice.

Offline 73restomod

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 528
Re: 3.58" cranks in 318 with 308 heads and stock height pistons (318 mains)
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2013 - 07:44:34 PM »
I think this combo comes down to being unique, no one really does it so that lends it some appeal. Also, just because its unique doesn't mean it will fail. I meet a man about 2 years ago at Milford off road park in Kansas. He had an old power wagon, unfortunately he put a Chevy motor in it. However, it was a bad ass trail rig, 4WS, hydraulic rams that could jack the truck's suspension to get it over obstacles. Three weeks later, I was at the drag strip and watched him click off a high 11 second quarter on a truck with 37 inch knobbies. While I still hate the fact it was a Chevy, I had to know what was in it. A destroked 400 small block, weighing in at 377 cubes, dart heads, etc., now I have seen a lot of trail rigs with 350s stroked to 383, and not a one that ran like that. It was different, but it definitely worked.
HP I agree with you on looking at induction first, on stock motors it is always the biggest bottle neck to power.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013 - 07:54:29 PM by 73restomod »

Offline brads70

  • C-C.com Expert
  • ********
  • Posts: 18747
Re: 3.58" cranks in 318 with 308 heads and stock height pistons (318 mains)
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2013 - 08:15:00 PM »
I think this combo comes down to being unique, no one really does it so that lends it some appeal. Also, just because its unique doesn't mean it will fail. I meet a man about 2 years ago at Milford off road park in Kansas. He had an old power wagon, unfortunately he put a Chevy motor in it. However, it was a bad ass trail rig, 4WS, hydraulic rams that could jack the truck's suspension to get it over obstacles. Three weeks later, I was at the drag strip and watched him click off a high 11 second quarter on a truck with 37 inch knobbies. While I still hate the fact it was a Chevy, I had to know what was in it. A destroked 400 small block, weighing in at 377 cubes, dart heads, etc., now I have seen a lot of trail rigs with 350s stroked to 383, and not a one that ran like that. It was different, but it definitely worked.
HP I agree with you on looking at induction first, on stock motors it is always the biggest bottle neck to power.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 377 sb chevy is the best combo IMO ( for a chevy) Common in circle track ....when the rules allow it or as a cheater engine.  :bigsmile:
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0