Timing Mark issues - Nothing lines up...

[74 challenge]

Hi Everyone,

I am currently trying to get my 74 challenger 318 urnning properly after a distributor swap. Originally it wouldn't run at all and Bullit helped me figure out that it was 180 degrees out. After fixing this issue the car started up first try no hesitation. Now I am at the setting my timing part. However I canot see the line at all anymore.

Here is a bit of background:

1. when disto was put in the timing mark on the balacer was spot on TDC.
2.  With the car running, warmed up, vaccum advance removed and plugged the line is no where to be seen (using a timing light)
3. Used a sharpie to make the line red, still no help
4. Rotated the disto about an inch in one direction till engine started to sputter and about 3/4 of an inch in the other direction till the engine sputtered and no line ever appeared on the damper.

What am I doing wrong here? I have heard of balancers slipping but it was right before the engine was started? How do I test if a balancer is no longer any good? there seems to be no vibration and it looks from a distance to be in good condition.

For setting the timing I am thinking about getting a bolt to use as a piston stop, rotating the engine by hand in one direction and making a mark, then doing the same thing in the opposite direction and in between those two marks will be TDC and throw on some timing tape.Once I have determined TDC I can do the 2 3/8" trick to determine 36 degrees total advance.

I did take the car out for a test drive and I am getting some pinging under acceleration so in my mind I need to retard the timing but it's hard to do so when you have no idea what the timing is currently set at. Some people can do the timing by ear but I do not posses that skill.

I'll adress the timing chain as it might come up, I Have no idea when it was last replaced I have never done so in the 3 years I have owned the car. The engine was "rebuilt" in the earlty 90's, what was changed and re-used I have no idea.

Ideas? thoughts?

appreciate it!

[ourname]

Does your distributor have mechanical advance? (Was this an exact dist change?)If It does your timing could be that far advanced that you cannot see it under idle. What rpm are you looking for the mark?  If you have your light on and move the distributor (alter rpm) untill you see the mark you will get an idea if it is advanced or retarded. You mentioned it pings. I am guessing your advanced. Did you replace the wires in the same spot on the cap? Having wire 1 over one spot would also move your mark. If your balancer moved you would see torn rubber where they join.

Good luck

[burdar]

What kind of timing light do you have?  If you have a "dial back" light, you can turn the dial and find your mark.  You may need one anyway to get the timing set properly.  I've got my 318 set at 15 degrees.  The only way to do that is with a dial back light or timing tape.

Make sure the vacuum advance is disconnected when you are setting timing...

[Strawdawg]

If the above did not fix it, by any chance could have the two wires from the distributor become reversed somehow?

[Chryco Psycho]

A piston stop going both ways & putting a line between the 2 marks is simple the most accurate way to locate TDC  why the mark is missing I have no clue . Personally I time by ear & threw away my timing light decades ago , I have found it to be a more reliable way to accurately get the best power on the dyno , I was even challenged by the dyno owner / operator  to repeat the result so he threw the timing off & had me reset it , 3 times I got it back where it was with no markings  , we also maoved the timing looking for more power & it was generally on target or extremely close to max power .

[74 challenge]

I will just answer all 4 comments in one reply:

1. Ourname: The disto is a vacuum advance unit and it was disconected and the carb port was plugged. What RPM am i looking? no idea what the actual rpm is but it's fairly low as i'm looking for it at idle. I do not have a tach or a timing gun that tell me the rpm. I have double and triple checked the wires on the cap I can garantee that are correct. I have cheked the internet, the repair manual, everywhere I can to make sure I am using the right sequence. I Also see no rubber or evidence of rubber around the balancer

2. Burdar: I had a dial back light but while doing the initial timing the bulb died, the light was over 30 years old and it was well used so I am going on a parts store regular blinking light one. Advance was always disconected.

3. Strawdawg i have checked this time and time again, I have ruled it out.

4. Chryco: I am thinking about the piston stop method because I am running out of ideas. Short of taking this thing to a car show and asking some of the old timers to help this young gun out, I cannot do the timing by ear with the loudness of the exhaust I have no idea what I am listening for and find it very hard to find the pinging sound unless I am in the car and driving it. If you didn`t live half the world away in latitude i`d pass it by you lol. Also I might not have been born when you threw away your timing light haha.

I think it`s also safe to say I am not really looking for max power I am way more concerned about having a car that runs right, starts everytime, is dead reliable and gets decent MPG. It`s a 318, a904, open highway rear gear it will never be fast.

What if I tried doing the timing off the number 2 cly, would that help or what if the air fuel mixture is off, could that have an afect.

[Bullitt-]

HEY GUYS I'm thinking the timing chain is probably off a tooth or two... Would this be a reasonable explanation? That or the outer ring of the balancer has slipped.

74 orange, your timing marks are on the drivers side of the motor?   

[cudabob496]

Hooking up a vacuum gauge and adjusting distributor for highest vacuum at idle might
help you get in ballpark.

[Bullitt-]

Hooking up a vacuum gauge and adjusting distributor for highest vacuum at idle might
help you get in ballpark.

excellent suggestion....here's a how to  http://automotivemileposts.com/garage/v2n8.html
 And I might add do it a second time as every adjustment made will effect the previous a bit.


more good stuff you can see with a vacuum gauge   http://i39.tinypic.com/bj62oz.jpg

[high perf mopar]

"""""Test drive your car and listen for any ping under light acceleration as well as under heavy acceleration. Additional retarding of the timing may be necessary if excessive pinging occurs. You should hear a very slight ping under light acceleration, and none under heavy acceleration. Your engine is now optimally timed to run on today's lower octane, no lead fuels."""""

that last part is where im at today,,slight pinging at freeway speeds only...my machinest says thats no good..could burn a hole in the piston or break rings,etc.installed a11 rgk coldest pugs ava dropped 2 steps.. and upped the jets 4 points..will try it tommorw on the freeway..otherwise good to go...except freeway ping.  so much for mopar alleys show with the car...

[Chryco Psycho]

it is not so much about ping , once the timing is set right it will start & run the best too & generally get the best milage . Generally what I do is hold the throttle steady close to 3000 rpm & advance the timing until the RPM stops rising , if you keep going it will start to pop therough the exhaust , back it off until the RPM just starts to drop off & tighten it down

[Rich G]

Here's an old school tip for you. Take out the #1 spark plug and disconnect the coil wire. Stick your finger in the spark plug hole and have someone TAP the starter  until you feel the compression blow out the hole. Now you know your TDC on the compression stroke. Look at the timing mark. You'll probably be a few degrees off that way but close enough to see the timing mark. If its nowhere in site then you know the mark on balancer is off. If you want to go a little further stick a coat hanger in the hole once your on the compression stroke and have someone turn the engine over by hand and you will feel when the piston is all the up. After you know your on TDC with the piston the timing mark should be on 0. I would thing if the timing chain jumped a tooth it would fun like crap or have no power. ( just double check that you are using #1 cyl with our timing light)

[jimynick]

If the pointer was right on the mark, as described and now after a distributor swap it isn't, I wonder if the oil pump drive shaft got lifted and skipped over a tooth? Start from scratch, as Chryco suggested and eliminate the variables. If, after using the piston stop the mark is back in the right spot, then re-set the dist. and make sure the wiring arrangement is also correct. Just my 

[Chryco Psycho]

Does it start easily & run ok ? If it does then the timing chain has noit jumped , also it doesn't matter if the oil pump drive has moved , if it starts Ok the mark shoul dline up , I think you said you advanced it until it ran bad & retarded it until it ran bad so you have it running & have adjusted the timing through the workable range without seeing the marks .

[74 challenge]

Does it start easily & run ok ? If it does then the timing chain has noit jumped , also it doesn't matter if the oil pump drive has moved , if it starts Ok the mark shoul dline up , I think you said you advanced it until it ran bad & retarded it until it ran bad so you have it running & have adjusted the timing through the workable range without seeing the marks .

I have done some work on the car and now I can get it to start, idle and eliminated the engine running for ~10 seconds after I shut it off but now it pings as I accelerate above 20 mph it gets worse as I accelerate more. I am running regular gas. I am thinking I need to adjust the vac advance on the disto now? It could be coming on too quickly? I tested the vac advance and it works just fine. The ping also only happens under load not in park in the driveway.