Intelligent conversation about surveillance versus the Constitution

[spamtank]

Obviuoisly our government has a bunch of greedy crooks in the bunch so they need to watched more closely than they currently are.There is already a lot of abuse of power and greed in the system.

What we need to do is clean government out and start with a clean slate.

[BIGSHCLUNK]

Stuff like this maybe? 

http://rt.com/usa/dhs-ammo-investigation-napolitano-645/

I cant say I know whogoes to the range...or who all carries here ...... BUT buying ammo the last few months has been a real PITA. 9mm /45/40 virtually non-exsistant around here

[NCtrueconservative]

I think Brad and BIGS have been spot on. My generation actually gives up their privacy and security freely (twitter, facebook, whatever) just for a chance to be famous or be seen.  I also agree with this nation not being this divided since the civil war.  I think if you take a look at the breakdown of what states have what opinions on these matters, it looks like an exact replica of the previous war between the states.  2nd amendment is key, we can't lose that.  Reading that Verizon and others had given all this info to the govt made me really mad.  To me, it's not any of the government's business who I call.  I can understand looking into records if someone is a suspect.  But law abiding citizens shouldn't have their info given away IMO.......ALSO, can I say in regards to airplanes, TSA, stuff like that.  Why is it that I, or you, or grandma have to go through scanners that see through our clothes, get groped, etc. and some guy named Mohammed with a head wrap on, walks right on the plane without going through the same process for fear of being "politically incorrect" The Boston Bombers were on the watch list, and nothing was done.  IIRC so was the underwear bomber.  We've got to put political correctness behind us and start looking at groups that we know are bad (***I don't mean to say all muslims are bad. I'm saying there are radical sects that our govt has seemed to turn a blind eye to for fear of being called politically incorrect or accused of profiling.)  It all goes back to what Reagan said.  "Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem." That's all I'll say about it.  Maybe the Good Lord will come back and take us home before this country becomes a full blown european state

[BIGSHCLUNK]

I think Brad and BIGS have been spot on. My generation actually gives up their privacy and security freely (twitter, facebook, whatever) just for a chance to be famous or be seen.  I also agree with this nation not being this divided since the civil war.  I think if you take a look at the breakdown of what states have what opinions on these matters, it looks like an exact replica of the previous war between the states.  2nd amendment is key, we can't lose that.  Reading that Verizon and others had given all this info to the govt made me really mad.  To me, it's not any of the government's business who I call.  I can understand looking into records if someone is a suspect.  But law abiding citizens shouldn't have their info given away IMO.......ALSO, can I say in regards to airplanes, TSA, stuff like that.  Why is it that I, or you, or grandma have to go through scanners that see through our clothes, get groped, etc. and some guy named Mohammed with a head wrap on, walks right on the plane without going through the same process for fear of being "politically incorrect" The Boston Bombers were on the watch list, and nothing was done.  IIRC so was the underwear bomber.  We've got to put political correctness behind us and start looking at groups that we know are bad (***I don't mean to say all muslims are bad. I'm saying there are radical sects that our govt has seemed to turn a blind eye to for fear of being called politically incorrect or accused of profiling.)  It all goes back to what Reagan said.  "Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem." That's all I'll say about it.  Maybe the Good Lord will come back and take us home before this country becomes a full blown european state

Here's a young man Ol' BIGS can relate too,  congrats, most dont see what you do.

[Gumby]

anlauto, there ARE Checks and Balances in place to prevent abuse. it's called the Constitution. When our elected leaders signed the Patriot Act, they destroyed many of our freedoms. People say, Oh, it's good for the Country, if it stops only one terrorist! NOT SO! It gives unbridled power to the power in charge to spy on and defeat their adversaries. Look how the IRS used these powers to eleminate the threat of the Tea Party or Libertarians that were opposed to the party in charge. No real stretch of the imagination why they wouldn't delay tax exempt status, to any group that opposes them, it goes on whichever party is in office, I imagine. BUT, you just wait. When the Affordable Health Care Act is in place - The IRS is going to be the entity to oversee it. You will be turned down if you support the opposing party in power for health care. I GAURENTEE IT! Need proof? look what they are doing now, and how they try and keep everything secret from people. Everything about BIG government is bad, no matter who is in charge. The original intent was for States to manage their own affairs. The Federal government was never suppossed to be as big as it is. The PEOPLE are the Constitution. They PEOPLE are suppossed to be able to rule. Federal gov is suppossed to be a servant of the people.  The checks and balances have been pushed aside to support a very few in power. The Constitution was a brilliant document designed to prevent exactly what is happening now. Our elected eaders have pushed their own agendas and completely ignored the Constitution to further their own agendas. If more young people were taught  respect and reverence for our Country, and what it has accomplished, instead of being brainwashed that we are somehow the oppressor and need to apologize to communist despots and corrupt muderous regimes, we would be much better off. Also, we need to wean people off the unsustainable belief that the Federal government can take care of them from cradle to grave. We need to learn to be self reiant once again.

[Gumby]

OH, one more thing. Support the 2nd amendment. it is the ONLY reason we are not a 3rd world Country yet. Buy everything and anything you can, and vote to veto any attempts to disarm you, or place any restrictions on you.

[NCtrueconservative]

OH, one more thing. Support the 2nd amendment. it is the ONLY reason we are not a 3rd world Country yet. Buy everything and anything you can, and vote to veto any attempts to disarm you, or place any restrictions on you.

AMEN

[Gumby]

Read with an open mind. I came across this AFTER I posted what I did above, folks. http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2013/06/07/america_in_the_midst_of_a_coup_d_etat Yes, I know many of you are not fans of his. I admit that I don't ever listen to him. I don't own a tv. I don't listen to radio. But read the body of the post. It is scary the data they powers that be are collecting on you. Every credit card and debit card transaction is in included as well.

[BIGSHCLUNK]

I'm sure they are also aware of any forum your a member of also. Granted here we are for all to see. But I'm sure we fit in a profile somewhere.

And yes I'm a member of a firearms forum too!

[GranCuda1970]

Read with an open mind. I came across this AFTER I posted what I did above, folks. http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2013/06/07/america_in_the_midst_of_a_coup_d_etat Yes, I know many of you are not fans of his. I admit that I don't ever listen to him. I don't own a tv. I don't listen to radio. But read the body of the post. It is scary the data they powers that be are collecting on you. Every credit card and debit card transaction is in included as well.

Powers that the Government granted for itself is and afraid to see exposed.

[tommyg29]

Gumby,
When you made the quote "if it stops one terrorist", it reminded me of the 2nd amendment debate.
How many times during the gun debates have we heard "if it saves one life"
I agree that we cannot fall for that argument. It is bogus. No one can ever guarantee the savings of any life, and going down that road on every issue would eventually lead to an insanely tyrannical society.
We cannot give up our God given or natural rights for the hope of more security.
Modern technology blurs the lines, and is moving them further and further all the time.
Courts have apparently ruled that keeping records of the facts ABOUT your calls and emails are not the same as the actual content within them, which are supposedly still off limits to big brother.
Someone mentioned Limbaugh. I listen to him some, and today he quoted a tech blogger who gave the following examples.
If you called a sex hotline at 2am for 18 minutes, do you think you know what the conversation was about?
If you called an HIV hotline, and then immediately called your doctor, do you think you know what the conversation was about?
If you received a call from the local Tea Party office, and then immediately called your congressman, could you guess what the conversation was about?
Point is, you can tell an awful lot about people with the facts ABOUT your calls and emails.
Two more issues.
They are apparently intercepting EVERYONES digital communications AND transactions (credit, debit, etc). Not from just non-citizens, but common sense tells me EVERYONE, and then supposedly reviewing only those that are subject to FISA warrants, etc. If this is true, and it may be so, whats to prevent government employees from abusing that information, which they have already done. Remember the IRS scandals and releases of confidential tax return information. And what about if you get arrested for something 10 years from now, and the prosecutors office gets access to all of this going back as far as they want. Which leads me to google, facebook, twitter, etc. Many people put all kinds of embarrassing stuff on there, and they have no idea, or ignorantly dont care, how much privacy they are giving up.
What a shame that so many people have no idea the cost of freedom.

[GranCuda1970]

Gumby,
When you made the quote "if it stops one terrorist", it reminded me of the 2nd amendment debate.
How many times during the gun debates have we heard "if it saves one life"
I agree that we cannot fall for that argument. It is bogus. No one can ever guarantee the savings of any life, and going down that road on every issue would eventually lead to an insanely tyrannical society.
We cannot give up our God given or natural rights for the hope of more security.
Modern technology blurs the lines, and is moving them further and further all the time.
Courts have apparently ruled that keeping records of the facts ABOUT your calls and emails are not the same as the actual content within them, which are supposedly still off limits to big brother.
Someone mentioned Limbaugh. I listen to him some, and today he quoted a tech blogger who gave the following examples.
If you called a sex hotline at 2am for 18 minutes, do you think you know what the conversation was about?
If you called an HIV hotline, and then immediately called your doctor, do you think you know what the conversation was about?
If you received a call from the local Tea Party office, and then immediately called your congressman, could you guess what the conversation was about?
Point is, you can tell an awful lot about people with the facts ABOUT your calls and emails.
Two more issues.
They are apparently intercepting EVERYONES digital communications AND transactions (credit, debit, etc). Not from just non-citizens, but common sense tells me EVERYONE, and then supposedly reviewing only those that are subject to FISA warrants, etc. If this is true, and it may be so, whats to prevent government employees from abusing that information, which they have already done. Remember the IRS scandals and releases of confidential tax return information. And what about if you get arrested for something 10 years from now, and the prosecutors office gets access to all of this going back as far as they want. Which leads me to google, facebook, twitter, etc. Many people put all kinds of embarrassing stuff on there, and they have no idea, or ignorantly dont care, how much privacy they are giving up.
What a shame that so many people have no idea the cost of freedom.

Could not have said it better myself.

[GranCuda1970]

I think Brad and BIGS have been spot on. My generation actually gives up their privacy and security freely (twitter, facebook, whatever) just for a chance to be famous or be seen.  I also agree with this nation not being this divided since the civil war.  I think if you take a look at the breakdown of what states have what opinions on these matters, it looks like an exact replica of the previous war between the states.  2nd amendment is key, we can't lose that.  Reading that Verizon and others had given all this info to the govt made me really mad.  To me, it's not any of the government's business who I call.  I can understand looking into records if someone is a suspect.  But law abiding citizens shouldn't have their info given away IMO.......ALSO, can I say in regards to airplanes, TSA, stuff like that.  Why is it that I, or you, or grandma have to go through scanners that see through our clothes, get groped, etc. and some guy named Mohammed with a head wrap on, walks right on the plane without going through the same process for fear of being "politically incorrect" The Boston Bombers were on the watch list, and nothing was done.  IIRC so was the underwear bomber.  We've got to put political correctness behind us and start looking at groups that we know are bad (***I don't mean to say all muslims are bad. I'm saying there are radical sects that our govt has seemed to turn a blind eye to for fear of being called politically incorrect or accused of profiling.)  It all goes back to what Reagan said.  "Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem." That's all I'll say about it.  Maybe the Good Lord will come back and take us home before this country becomes a full blown european state

 

 Political corrcectness run amock!! Not all muslims are terrorists but 95% of all terrorist activity spawns from radical islam.

[GranCuda1970]

You guys were talking about the 2nd ammendmant. Adults are already trying to indoctrinate youth against the 2nd have been doing it for a a long time.

 Like this absolutely stupid indoctrination program attempt.

   
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/06/10/Elementary-School-Urges-Students-To-Turn-In-Toy-Guns
   

[GranCuda1970]

Everyone one knows Tax guys need secret camera's and listening devices in coffe trays and clock camera's.

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=02c590e056cce34d585fb70864da3dda&tab=core&_cview=0

I would love to hear the reasoning behind them having or needing this. I want to hear it straight from obama.