OK...Any Comments/ Suggestions on 6.1 Hemi with NAG1 Transmission???

[1970GranCoupeConvert]

I have been SERIOUSLY researching a Gen III Hemi transplant into my 1970 Barracuda.

Specifically I was told that if I found a 2009 and newer Hemi donar car...the ONLY thing that would be worth anything would be the engine.  This person (who is in the business and seems very knowledgeable) told me that the transmission and PCM/TCM/ABS modules would all be completely worthless and that they could not be used in a E body and that I would have to buy a different PCM.

This same person said that the only modern transmission that could be used would be the 545RFE because nobody has been able to hack the Chrysler code.  Naturally a guy could use a 727/904/518 or even a GM 4L60E (must used with a stand alone, GM PCM with speed sensors and separate wire harness).

Then...I talked to Ben from from Plum Floored and he completely contradicted the previous person's advice.  Ben really seems to know his Sh-Tuff and he recommended the NAG1 transmission.

Ben even sells wire harnesses that are designed to work with the NAG1.

I've done three modern engine/ transmission transplants already (LS-1 into 55 Chevy, LT-1 into a 55 Chevy, and an LS-1 into a 61 Cadillac) so I am not afraid of the project.  Im pretty sharp on the GM products but I am really ignorant on the Chrysler stuff so PLEASE...anyone who knows there stuff please chime in and provide your feedback.

My questions are:

Has anyone installed the NAG1 transmission in an E body?

I have only seen pictures of the NAG1 and it looks kinda thin and short so how easily does the NAG1 fit into the E body transmission tunnel?  Any tunneling work need to be done?  Can the rear of the transmission be installed high enough to where the pinion angles can be lined up with the E Body 8 3/4?

It appears that the NAG1 has a bolt on yolk.  Has anyone had any luck building a drive shaft without having to go with a two piece driveshaft?

What donar car should I be looking for?

Other than replacing the oil pan with a mid sump oil pan and using the Gem III HEMI motor mount adapter plates to mount the new engine to the original K frame, what other engine related changes need to be performed?

I want to continue to use my Firm Feel so will the new HEMI power steering pump work with my Firm Feel (I was told that the new pump has too much pressure at 3,000 PSI and that is too much for the OEM CHrysler box)?  Any actual experience?

Will all of the accessories of the new HEMI fit into the E body K frame and engine bay?

I intend on installing a Vintage Air unit so will the new Hemi engine AC compressor work (I know the new GM AC compressors are variable displacement pumps and the OEM Sanden style compressors are positive displacement pumps...but I have no idea about the new Chrysler stuff)?

What is the best way to address the speedo since I want to utilize my original speedometer?

It appears that my original tachometer can be used with a MSD Tach adaptor.  What is the model number of the tach adapter that I need to purchase?

I will need to fabricate the rear transmission mount.  Does anyone have any pictures of a new mount on the NAG1?

I currently have a slap stick.  Since the NAG1 is cable selected into forward and reverse and then it is shifted via electronic means it appears my options are to either adapt the new Challenger shifter to my original console or fabricate a cable shift and electric switching mechanism with into the old slap stick.  Does anyone know if the "paddle shifter" is a simple single contact switch (one contact per selected gear) or some extensive multi-contact cannon plug?

I plan on using the drive by wire unit so what is the best method of running the gas pedal (using the new gas pedal/rheostat or running the original gas pedal's cable to the engine compartment where a remote cable interface/rheostat will sent the gas pedal signal to the PCM?

I currently have cruise control via the OEM Chrysler vacuum actuator.  On my GM products I simply had the wire harness fabricator run 3 extra wires from the PCM (on, set/coast, resume/accelerate).  I connected the "on" wire to a toggle switch (single pole)and then connected each of the other two wires to its own push button switch (momentary contact, single pole, normally off) and then grounded all three switches to ground and the PCM uses the speed sensor to communicate with the throttle body servo and the cruise control works great.  Can this also be done with the Chrysler technology?

Fuel system wise, on my GM transplants I used a fuel filter from a 1999 Corvette.  This fuel filter is a combined unit that is both a fuel pressure regulator and a filter.  The filter has three pipes and those being an inlet, outlet, and return to tank and this made the install much easier because since I mounted the filter/regulator near the tank I only had to run fuel line up to the engine compartment.  How does the Chrysler fuel injection system work?  Do they use two lines (pressure and return) all the way up to the engine bay?  If so what is the fuel pressure required at the injectors?

Anyhoo...any suggestions/feedback online or off line would be appreciated!!!

 

[Haddixj]

I have dealt with Ben before,
long story I'll type out a little but google him and his business first.
I bought a complete drivetrain out of a 08 srt8 charger, I was going to swap into my 70 and found his website gave him a call and he was really helpful to begin with. He was interested in getting the rest of the stuff from the car I wasnt going to use so I put him in touch with the guy I bought the engine stuff from and they worked out a deal. I also worked out a deal where I would give him the trans and computers in exchange for all the stuff to swap the engine into my car, oil pan, mounts, flexplate and something else. So he said I will have everything drop shipped to you. I say ok, I pull the motor and try and call him to see if the deal is done with the owner, no answer or respnse. So I hear from him eventually after I had started to pull the other parts and he said that the deal is done and that a shipping company will be picking up the car and will call me to work out the date and time. So I recieve the oil pan and let him know, he says the other parts are back ordered or something and should ship in a few weeks. I say ok no problem help ship out the car and wait, don't get any responses. This goes on for weeks, he responds after I sorta threaten him, (basically to collect my parts or money when I am in AZ). Get a text right back says parts have shipped, week goes by another execuse "I have the parts in my car just been busy." Does this a few more times which at this point he is just lying and I have found his history on other forums. In the middle of this the guy that sold him the rest of the car calls me and says whats up with your friend? I havent seen the other half of my money and its been a few weeks and no contact. I text him a few times and after I let him know that the guys dad is a CHP and wants the money ($800) he sends back already talked to him. I told him I am not shipping the car until the owner is happy. So eventually he works it out with the guy and the owner says ship it. After Ben gets the car I stop hearing from him again and it took a while and again basically a threat I say something like F the parts I will be made whole see you in AZ. He text's me back right after some BS and says I will paypal you the money for the parts, like $350 he says. I say fine, he ends up taking a few days to do it and only sends $300. 

I have saved all the texts on my old phone if he wants to say otherwise but I wouldnt deal with Ben unless you are LOCAL to him or he is willing to ship you all the parts before you pay there are several people out there waiting for him to ship the parts. He is either an addict or a lousy business man

He texted me when I was selling the motor and asked what I would take for it, I sent back $4500 which is more then I was selling it for just not to deal with him

 

[1970GranCoupeConvert]

Haddixj says >I bought a complete drivetrain out of a 08 srt8 charger, I was going to swap into my 70

Sorry to hear you had that kind of drama!!!

Anyhoo...how far did you get on the transplant? 

What transmission did the donor car come with?

What did you decide to do with the computer(s) and harness?

I do not need to go with a modified computer program because I am really not too interested in high horsepower and low ET's.  I'm really more into high speed cruising and low revs at 75 MPH.  Seriously without overdrive it is super embarrassing and downright sad to have Toyotas and U-Haul vans passing you on the highway.

I was told that you can keep the Vehicle Anti-Theft system as long as you have the original key FOB to interact with the new Challenger's computer and then your E Body car key will be retained to lock the steering column, complete the "accessory" circuit, and the "Start" position of the ignition will only be used to complete the start sequence (instead of pushing the "Start" button on the Gen III car).

Regarding the key FOB magic...where is the receiver that intercepts the key FOB signal in the new Challenger?  Is it a remote antenna or is it a chip within the PCM or other computer?

[Haddixj]

I was sorta warned after the fact about dealing with him once I started googleing him.
I havent done anything at this point because I am unsure of the route I will take my car, I bought a 71 cuda and would like to do a OE style resto on it. The 70 will go to my son when he is old enough to drive (he is 3 now)
It was a NAG 1 trans that came with the car, I was going to do a A518 non lockup trans. They are the easiest to fit and can be trimmed without modifing the floor from what I remember reading on here. All the computers and harness was supposed to goto Ben but after dealing with him I kept the engine harness just in case it played out like I thought it would.
I was going to keep all the electronics but sent them with the car after the oil pan showed up.   
I was told the same thing that you needed everything from the donor car to use the factory ECU. There is a TCU also for the trans. from what I understand and read on one of the forums you need the speed sensors from the rear axles and a tone wheel there was a picture on one of the forums but the guy disapeared and didnt really breakdown what he did.
I think the reciever is in the base of the key socket. I pulled the entire car apart and had everything except one wire that was in the steering wheel area and broke the clip getting it undone.
what are you trying to build a factory appearing car?

[Travis72]

I intend on installing a Vintage Air unit so will the new Hemi engine AC compressor work (I know the new GM AC compressors are variable displacement pumps and the OEM Sanden style compressors are positive displacement pumps...but I have no idea about the new Chrysler stuff)?

Fuel system wise, on my GM transplants I used a fuel filter from a 1999 Corvette.  This fuel filter is a combined unit that is both a fuel pressure regulator and a filter.  The filter has three pipes and those being an inlet, outlet, and return to tank and this made the install much easier because since I mounted the filter/regulator near the tank I only had to run fuel line up to the engine compartment.  How does the Chrysler fuel injection system work?  Do they use two lines (pressure and return) all the way up to the engine bay?  If so what is the fuel pressure required at the injectors?

Wow a lot of questions there.  First go and read through that swap thread on Moparts that was posted in your other thread.  From there I can try and answer a couple.

I don't have my Vintage Air system fully hooked up yet but I bought my setup from Prodigy Customs and they talked to Bill Howell (he has the 71 Charger with the 6.1 hemi that was on R U Faster than a Redneck) and the factory AC compressor works with the Vintage Air.  Bill has that setup in his car.

I used the same C5 Corvette fuel filter setup on my car.  The only downside is it runs at around 53 psi and stock the Hemi runs at ~58 psi.  I have a FAST system so I'm able to tune it with the lower fuel pressure.  Since Dave at Modern Muscle (forum sponsor) sells the Corvette fuel filter for Hemi swaps, I'm assuming there are no issues running the Corvette fuel filter with a stock ECU even with the difference in fuel pressure.  Contact Dave and he can answer that for sure.

I have pics of my fuel system in my build thread if you are interested.

Travis
72 Cuda

[1970GranCoupeConvert]

>Wow a lot of questions there. 

Yes...I do have a lot of questions.  Since it is better to ask advice and save a lot of time and a great deal of bad words and money I figure I will try and tap into the wealth of knowledge on this site.

>First go and read through that swap thread on Moparts that was posted in your other thread. 

I did.

>From there I can try and answer a couple.

Yes...PLEASE do (see below).


>I used the same C5 Corvette fuel filter setup on my car.  The only downside is it runs at around 53 psi and stock the Hemi runs at ~58 psi.  I have a FAST system so I'm able to tune it with the lower fuel pressure.  Since Dave at Modern Muscle (forum sponsor) sells the Corvette fuel filter for Hemi swaps, I'm assuming there are no issues running the Corvette fuel filter with a stock ECU even with the difference in fuel pressure. 

I saw on another forum that the Corvette filter puts out the equal 58 PSI.  Do you have a pressure gauge on yur fuel rail to confirm or do you have a reference to that 53 PSI figure?

>Contact Dave and he can answer that for sure.

Dave is busy in the shop and his phone is being forwarded to a real knowledgeable guy named Chris.  He is real sharp and nice but he did not know that answer.

>I have pics of my fuel system in my build thread if you are interested.

Yes please!!!  I clicked on your page but I could not find the thread.  Can you give me a link hint???

So my big question at the moment is the choice of transmission.  I really want to know IF a NAG1 will fit into the transmission tunnel of my E Body without any major surgery.  I am OK with a bit of trimming to the torsion bar/ cross member support however I am not going to reposition the floor boards/tunnel so I REALLY want to hear from someone who actually did this conversion.

I saw the Twisted Fish thread and I waded through most of the FIFTY PAGES but I cannot tell if he had to do any tunnel work.  His car is majorly reworked so my guess is that he has.

How about the 545 Transmission.  I assume it is thicker and more difficult.  I currently have a LA-727 with a Gear Vendor OD but I want the benefits of the computer control and super low 1st gear ratio.

Anyhoo...I'm sure there are lots of guys who have walked this path so PLEASE respond.

THANKS!!!

[1970GranCoupeConvert]

So I talked with Chris at Hotwire and he is already doing the computer reprogramming work on the NAG1!!!

Still the NAG-ING (pun intended) QUESTION for me is WILL THE NAG1 fit in the transmission tunnel without major surgery???

Has anyone specifically done this?  I know Twisted Fish got the NAG1 to work however his post looks like the trans tunnel is heavily modified.  I do not really want to have to cut my car up.

Regarding the computers...this is what Chris told me:

It seems the Gen III HEMI and NAG1 modification will need four computers.  It will need the PCM, Trans Computer, ABS computer, and the Shifter. 

The NAG1 communicates with the ABS computer and the ABS computer gets its speed information from all four wheel speed sensors.  Since a resto mod like our old E Body cars do not have speed sensors in the wheels he has decided to attach a "Tone Ring" to the transmission output shaft.  This tone ring is a reluctor that replaces the speed sensors in the wheels and the ABS simply thinks that the car is driving strait ahead and all wheels are accelerating/cruising/decelerating at the same speed.  Pretty cleaver!!!

The NAG1 will need to use a modern car shifter because the shifter has a computer board in it and there is a plug of sorts that connects the shifter to the wire harness and then to the PCM. 

I think I can modify my center console to use the new shifter and still make it look nice.  Has anyone done this?

Regarding the stock speedometer, the NAG1 does not have an output for the speedo cable so an aftermarket electrically driven servo motor will need to be used to drive the speedometer cable.

[Travis72]

As measured on my Autometer electric fuel pressure gauge with the sensor in the fuel rail I'm seeing 54 psi at idle.



I can't help you on the NAG and I think I've only seen Twisted Fish that has one.  However, given that the only things that seem to fit in an E-body tunnel without cutting are a 727 and a 883, I'd be willing to bet that you would have to cut the floor significantly to make it fit.

This is my build thread:

http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=28465.0

Travis
72 Cuda

[Ken D]

Guess you have seen these pictures to compare the transmissions.
It almost looks like it will fit without any major work

[1970GranCoupeConvert]

Wow Ken D THANKS for the picture.  Very informative!!!  I and I'm sure a lot of other guys are very grateful for you taking your time to help us out!!!  Im sure we will pay it back to you somehow or pay it forward to some other guy in the group!!!

The profile shot is the most informative. 

The profile shots seem to be somewhat deceptive because the transmission pans might not all be the same depth so that it makes some of the transmissions to appear higher than they are compares to the LA-727 and that they would be when installed in the car.

Naturally...the most important dimension with respect to tunnel clearance is the measurement from the centerline of the input/output shaft to the top and sides of the trans case.

What is the third transmission???  A 545?

Why do you have the NAG1 and the 545?  Are you in the process of attempting an instal in an E Body?  If so, how far have you got???  Please do tell all?!?!?!

Not that I am trying to volunteer you for more work (well actually I am kinda hinting at it)...gee...it sure would be really interesting to see the height measurement above the center shaft and the width measurement beside the center shaft measurements of the 727 transmission as compared to the NAG1 and the 545 from the following points:

Bellhousing face back 5 inches
Bellhousing face back 10 inches
Bellhousing face back 15 inches
Bellhousing face back 20 inches
Bellhousing face back to the location of the 727 rear support

Additionally it would be interesting to compare the location (inches aft of the bellhousing face) of the NAG rear support to that of the 727 and the 545.

It almost looks like the NAG1 (center) has a rear support that is located almost the same distance aft of the 727.

Yes the NAG1 has a flange for an output shaft and a good driveshaft fabricator could easily use the forward section of a 20XX Challenger driveshaft and splice it to a slip yolk and then install an 8 3/4 inch rear axel universal joint.  This is pretty much what the Jeeps do anyway.

Also...Notice the NAG1 is so much shorter than the 727.  This is a very good thing.  Assuming the NAG1 is thicker than the 727 and assuming that if it is installed in the E Body and it touches the trans tunnel.  To counter act this the engine can be installed slightly more tail down than the OEM 727. 

Since the tail shaft of the 727 is so much longer than the NAG1, the angular difference would be negated because the drive shaft would need to be so much longer.  As long as the rear axel angle is pointing upward and forward at the same angle that  the transmission is pointing aft and down, then the angular difference could be counteracted so that there would be no drive line vibration.

OR...the front universal joint could be a Double Cardone joint (two universal joints installed together and 180 degrees out of phase).  I did a transplant of a GM LS-1 and a 4L85E into a 1961 Cadillac and the best I could get the front angular difference was 4 degrees and with a normal U joint I was getting a viberation at 70 MPH.  I had my favorite driveshaft fabricator replace the standard U joint with a double cardone a problem solved!!!

If you guys are looking for a very good drive shaft fabricator...there is no one better than Steve at South Bay Drive line in San Jose, CA!!!

[1970GranCoupeConvert]

Thanks Travis for the thread on your build.  Very helpful.

Nice ride BTW.  I really like the color!!!

[Ken D]

I actually found these pictures in a old thread on the moparts forum,so I cant take credit for these pictures.

Yes,the transmission to the right is a 45/545RFE.

I do have these transmissions,but i'm using the 545RFE,and that required modifications the tunnel to make it fit.

[1970GranCoupeConvert]

OK...thanks anyway!!!  I hope you like your 545.

Sooo...back to the old beating a dead horse...again...and again...

 

Does ...ANYONE...know for sure...with actual experience...IF the NAG1 will fit into the stock tunnel of an E-Body???  If modifications are needed to the floor pan...then what modifications are necessary???

Does anyone have any more dead horses that I can beat???

[roadrunninMark]

Hi 70GC,

I have the exact same idea for my 71.  I asked David Weber (modernmuscleperformance) the same question about the NAG1 fitting and he was willing to ship me a core of the NAG1 plus core charge, in which I would ship it back and get the core charge back.  I didn't do it because shipping both ways was like $200 and thought I could put that to parts.  So far I haven't made any progress on this as I am having bodywork done to the car.  I don't want to cut the car either and would shave the trans where I could to fit.  I am sure David would ship you a core too, if you are willing to give it a shot.  I really want to do this project as well and will be following your progress!  When you get this project rolling, please take a lot of pictures and detail everything you do, also what difficulties that arose and how you solved them.

Thanks,
Mark

[Lone wolf]

I replied to this in another thread. I have one in my 73 cuda. Except for a little work at the firewall tunnel opening to clear the fill tube it's about as close to a drop in as you can get. No major tunnel work needed.