alterktion vs Hotchkis price/performance

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Offline GreenFish

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alterktion vs Hotchkis price/performance
« on: October 14, 2013 - 02:02:40 PM »
So I'm trying to figure out if the Alterktion RMS, kit is worth the extra money vs a Hotchkis kit that keeps torsion bars.  Doing the math you can do a complete front and back leaf springs and a mix of hotchkis, Firmfeel , and even a QA1 tubular K member with lower control arms and still spend a whole lot less than the AlterK conversions.

The biggest difference you are getting with the AlterK is rack and pinion steering, and coil overs.

I'm not looking to go to the track, what I want is good road feel and no slop.  I want my suspension and steering to keep up with my OD transmission at higher speeds.  Its still a bit hairy at 75mph on the highway.  I'd also like to have a quick ratio power steering but it seems I can't have that with headers.

Thoughts???  opinions???
70 cuda, 440, KB pistons, 10.5:1 compression, edlebrock heads,RacerBrown cam, 5-Speed Tremec, Megasquirt EFI




Offline ToxicWolf

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Re: alterktion vs Hotchkis price/performance
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2013 - 02:13:43 PM »
I had the same thoughts and went with Hotchkis and Firmfeel. I added the quick ratio Hotchkis arms, but I'm not using headers. I'm still in the process of installing, so I can't give you any feedback on how it all works together yet, but the install is going pretty smooth.

Offline cudazappa

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Re: alterktion vs Hotchkis price/performance
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2013 - 02:30:49 PM »
I lean towards the factory K-frame and upgraded stock suspension.  The factory suspension is more than capable of handling high speed.  I don't look at a rack and pinion as an advantage.  If you want fast ratio and firm steering, invest in the borgeson box kit from Bergman Auto Craft.  He sells a complete bolt on kit  for about the same as a full Firm Feel box and pitman and idler arms.  You get faster ratio with the stock length arms, and improved steering feel.  When I did my car, it wasn't available yet.  That's the biggest break through in the last 5 years in Mopar Suspensions IMO.

Coil Overs are an advantage if you're going to be changing your wheel rates constantly and in small amounts.  How often does anyone do that? Torsion bars and leaf springs still work great!

Right now I'm undersprung with my setup and my car is planted at 90mph on the highway.  Essentially stock Suspension with 1" t-bars, 1 1/8 front sway, hotchkis rear sway, RCD Bilsteins, frame connectors, and 275/40 17s.
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Offline GreenFish

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Re: alterktion vs Hotchkis price/performance
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2013 - 03:29:33 PM »
I lean towards the factory K-frame and upgraded stock suspension.  The factory suspension is more than capable of handling high speed.  I don't look at a rack and pinion as an advantage.  If you want fast ratio and firm steering, invest in the borgeson box kit from Bergman Auto Craft.  He sells a complete bolt on kit  for about the same as a full Firm Feel box and pitman and idler arms.  You get faster ratio with the stock length arms, and improved steering feel.  When I did my car, it wasn't available yet.  That's the biggest break through in the last 5 years in Mopar Suspensions IMO.

Coil Overs are an advantage if you're going to be changing your wheel rates constantly and in small amounts.  How often does anyone do that? Torsion bars and leaf springs still work great!

Right now I'm undersprung with my setup and my car is planted at 90mph on the highway.  Essentially stock Suspension with 1" t-bars, 1 1/8 front sway, hotchkis rear sway, RCD Bilsteins, frame connectors, and 275/40 17s.

Thanks for the heads up on Bergman, First time I've heard of them.
70 cuda, 440, KB pistons, 10.5:1 compression, edlebrock heads,RacerBrown cam, 5-Speed Tremec, Megasquirt EFI

Offline brads70

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Re: alterktion vs Hotchkis price/performance
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2013 - 03:46:23 PM »
I'd agree with what Cudazappa said. I'm happy with my set up, and I've had it up over 110 MPH and it felt great. For what you want you can more than accomplish with the stock style suspension.
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
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Offline anlauto

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Re: alterktion vs Hotchkis price/performance
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2013 - 09:50:05 PM »
Anybody try CONTROL FREAK front and or rear suspension ?  http://www.freakride.com/2013_mopar.pdf

How does it compare in price to the others ?
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Offline 72bluNblu

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Re: alterktion vs Hotchkis price/performance
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2013 - 11:21:36 PM »
Anybody try CONTROL FREAK front and or rear suspension ?  http://www.freakride.com/2013_mopar.pdf

How does it compare in price to the others ?


The "control freak" suspension is just a backwards engineered RMS set up. In fact, the guy that came out with the freak ride suspension actually BOUGHT one of Bill's kits and used it to design his. I don't recall all the details, a magazine article may also have been involved. Anyway, I wouldn't use it on principle, regardless of quality or price. It was straight up stolen from RMS.

As far as RMS vs the stock suspension, there's no reason a torsion bar suspended mopar can't keep up with one that's been converted to coil overs. The coil over suspension is easier to tune and offers a bit more room for headers, but that's about it. A properly rebuilt torsion bar suspension is more than capable of speeds of 100+. After all, the first 200 mph car for NASCAR was a 1970 Dodge Charger Daytona, and you better believe it had a torsion bar suspension.

You don't even need to spend all the money on a Hotchkis set up. While nice, the Hotchkis TVR includes a lot of stuff that isn't absolutely needed, and is missing some things I would definitely suggest installing. Do this instead...

-Completely rebuild front end- new bushings (UCA and LCA), ball joints, tie rod ends, pitman & idler
-7103 Moog offset UCA bushings w/ stock UCA’s
-1”- 1.06” torsion bars
-Front and rear sway bars (Helwig or Hotchkis w/ adjustable rear bar)
-Bilstein RCD or Fox shocks
-Alignment: -.5* camber, +3 to +5 caster, 1/16” to 1/8” toe in
-17 or 18” rims with modern performance tires, 245 or wider
-Flaming River steering box or Borgeson/Delphi 600 power steering (http://bergmanautocraft.com/)
-Adjustable strut rods
-Solid tubular tie rod adjusters (9/16” tie rod ends ok with upgraded adjuster, PST has a great price on these)
-XHD rear springs or equivalent (~130lb rear leaf springs)
-Sub-frame connectors

And for extra handling improvement, stiffen up the chassis
-reinforce K member (seam weld, gusset steering box)
-reinforce lower control arms
-torque boxes
-tubular radiator support
-XV style inner fender braces (shock tower to firewall)

I'd skip on the most of the parts with heim joints for a street driven car simple because they wear out MUCH faster than bushings, and unless you're really competing the difference is hard to notice. The exception above that I have is the adjustable strut rods, which come in especially handy for tuning in aftermarket polyurethane lower control arm bushings. Or even making sure the replacement rubber stuff is actually in the right place and not binding.

If you did everything above, you would have an extremely well handling Mopar. 
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013 - 11:25:08 PM by 72bluNblu »

Offline GreenFish

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Re: alterktion vs Hotchkis price/performance
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2013 - 10:45:43 AM »
The "control freak" suspension is just a backwards engineered RMS set up. In fact, the guy that came out with the freak ride suspension actually BOUGHT one of Bill's kits and used it to design his. I don't recall all the details, a magazine article may also have been involved. Anyway, I wouldn't use it on principle, regardless of quality or price. It was straight up stolen from RMS.

As far as RMS vs the stock suspension, there's no reason a torsion bar suspended mopar can't keep up with one that's been converted to coil overs. The coil over suspension is easier to tune and offers a bit more room for headers, but that's about it. A properly rebuilt torsion bar suspension is more than capable of speeds of 100+. After all, the first 200 mph car for NASCAR was a 1970 Dodge Charger Daytona, and you better believe it had a torsion bar suspension.

You don't even need to spend all the money on a Hotchkis set up. While nice, the Hotchkis TVR includes a lot of stuff that isn't absolutely needed, and is missing some things I would definitely suggest installing. Do this instead...

-Completely rebuild front end- new bushings (UCA and LCA), ball joints, tie rod ends, pitman & idler
-7103 Moog offset UCA bushings w/ stock UCA’s
-1”- 1.06” torsion bars
-Front and rear sway bars (Helwig or Hotchkis w/ adjustable rear bar)
-Bilstein RCD or Fox shocks
-Alignment: -.5* camber, +3 to +5 caster, 1/16” to 1/8” toe in
-17 or 18” rims with modern performance tires, 245 or wider
-Flaming River steering box or Borgeson/Delphi 600 power steering (http://bergmanautocraft.com/)
-Adjustable strut rods
-Solid tubular tie rod adjusters (9/16” tie rod ends ok with upgraded adjuster, PST has a great price on these)
-XHD rear springs or equivalent (~130lb rear leaf springs)
-Sub-frame connectors

And for extra handling improvement, stiffen up the chassis
-reinforce K member (seam weld, gusset steering box)
-reinforce lower control arms
-torque boxes
-tubular radiator support
-XV style inner fender braces (shock tower to firewall)

I'd skip on the most of the parts with heim joints for a street driven car simple because they wear out MUCH faster than bushings, and unless you're really competing the difference is hard to notice. The exception above that I have is the adjustable strut rods, which come in especially handy for tuning in aftermarket polyurethane lower control arm bushings. Or even making sure the replacement rubber stuff is actually in the right place and not binding.

If you did everything above, you would have an extremely well handling Mopar.


Great info,

The best part about doing it this way is you can do it once piece at a time which is friendly to the wallet.
70 cuda, 440, KB pistons, 10.5:1 compression, edlebrock heads,RacerBrown cam, 5-Speed Tremec, Megasquirt EFI

Offline 72bluNblu

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Re: alterktion vs Hotchkis price/performance
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2013 - 12:42:57 PM »
Great info,

The best part about doing it this way is you can do it once piece at a time which is friendly to the wallet.

Absolutely. I would make sure to install the shocks at the same time as the larger torsion bars up front, as your old shocks will not like the upgraded spring rate. Ideally I should rank those modifications by how much difference they make, but that gets a little interesting. Just the rebuild and subframe connectors make a huge difference, followed by the torsion bars, tires, and shocks. But once you get new tires you need the new alignment etc , etc.

The tires by themselves make a HUGE difference compared to a set of BFG T/A hockey pucks, but you need the suspension parts to deal with all the additional forces being transferred to the suspension by tires that actually grip.

For steering you can also go with a Firm Feel rebuild on the stock power steering, but for not much more money you can get the Borgeson/Delphi box which is a huge improvement. 15 lbs lighter, much smaller, and a better steering ratio.

I left brakes off that list as well, I'd recommend at least the stock 10.98" disks in the front, although its easy enough to upgrade to the 11.75" rotors that came on the later Mopars if you already have at least 15" rims. Cass (Dr. Diff) sells the caliper adaptors for those, so its a bolt on. The only issue at the moment is that the adaptors that are being reproduced are for the slider calipers, so if you have pin style calipers you do need to change calipers, and if you have 70-72 disk spindles you need a bearing sleeve from Dr. Diff as well.

Offline GreenFish

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Re: alterktion vs Hotchkis price/performance
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2013 - 07:21:54 PM »
Absolutely. I would make sure to install the shocks at the same time as the larger torsion bars up front, as your old shocks will not like the upgraded spring rate. Ideally I should rank those modifications by how much difference they make, but that gets a little interesting. Just the rebuild and subframe connectors make a huge difference, followed by the torsion bars, tires, and shocks. But once you get new tires you need the new alignment etc , etc.

The tires by themselves make a HUGE difference compared to a set of BFG T/A hockey pucks, but you need the suspension parts to deal with all the additional forces being transferred to the suspension by tires that actually grip.

For steering you can also go with a Firm Feel rebuild on the stock power steering, but for not much more money you can get the Borgeson/Delphi box which is a huge improvement. 15 lbs lighter, much smaller, and a better steering ratio.

I left brakes off that list as well, I'd recommend at least the stock 10.98" disks in the front, although its easy enough to upgrade to the 11.75" rotors that came on the later Mopars if you already have at least 15" rims. Cass (Dr. Diff) sells the caliper adaptors for those, so its a bolt on. The only issue at the moment is that the adaptors that are being reproduced are for the slider calipers, so if you have pin style calipers you do need to change calipers, and if you have 70-72 disk spindles you need a bearing sleeve from Dr. Diff as well.

I did a PST poly graphite bushing upgrade around 10 years ago.  The isnt driven much so they are all still good. I also did a Wilwood break upgrade but I like the 15 inch wheels and my BFGs because of the way they look. I'm thinking of doing two sets of wheels that way i can go back and forth whenever i want. Thinking the 17 inch Magnum 500's maybe the ticket with a nice set of tires.

I currently have a manual steering box. It was originally PS but i'm getting older and its time to go back. The Borgeson/Delphi box is going to be the ticket. next will be tubular UCAs. Then ill go from there.
70 cuda, 440, KB pistons, 10.5:1 compression, edlebrock heads,RacerBrown cam, 5-Speed Tremec, Megasquirt EFI

Offline dodj

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Re: alterktion vs Hotchkis price/performance
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2013 - 07:51:34 PM »
I'd agree with what Cudazappa said. I'm happy with my set up, and I've had it up over 110 MPH and it felt great. For what you want you can more than accomplish with the stock style suspension.
:iagree: with Brad and zappa. i just went with bigger t-bars, frame connectors, torque boxes, bigger sway bars, offset upper control arm bushings, and a stage 2 steering box (shoulda went with a 3) and the handling is, IMO, very good. Not too expensive either.
Scott
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Offline Travis72

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Re: alterktion vs Hotchkis price/performance
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2013 - 01:18:14 AM »
As an owner of the RMS AlterKation, given the price difference I'd recommend the Hotchkis setup .  I bought my setup before the Hotchkis came out.

As other have said if you're not looking at going to the track then you can't go wrong with a good rebuild plus larger torsion bars and a Stage 2 steering box plus better shocks.

Travis
72 Cuda

Offline johns cuda shop

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Re: alterktion vs Hotchkis price/performance
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2013 - 07:38:15 AM »
Nice thread...There is lots that can be done with the stock suspension.And if you dont want to do any cutting/welding on your car , the Hotchis is a well thought out set up. The Alterkation has a larger turning radius than the Hotchkis.  My feeling is if your running a gen III Hemi, I would go with the Alterkation. The stock K will need to be modified around the steering box and a oil filter areas,and there is some exhaust header interference but I think TTI has figured it out. . Personally I like the room that the Alterkation gives you under the car to run larger headers without the steering box and torsion bars in the way. I believe its only a 75 pound weight penalty with the stock set up vrs the Alterkation. The adjustablity of the coilovers gives you freedom to set your car up for different situations.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013 - 07:40:29 AM by johns cuda shop »
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Offline AU6pack

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Re: alterktion vs Hotchkis price/performance
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2013 - 11:30:25 PM »
I believe that TTI have one set of headers designed to work with the fast rate pitman arm
Craig
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Offline GreenFish

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Re: alterktion vs Hotchkis price/performance
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2013 - 07:52:16 PM »
sounds like the fast ratio steering boxes that are recently available are the way to go for steering upgrades.
70 cuda, 440, KB pistons, 10.5:1 compression, edlebrock heads,RacerBrown cam, 5-Speed Tremec, Megasquirt EFI