Are All Reverse Pattern 727 Valve Bodies Manual Shift Only?

[Road_Runner]

In my reading it seems that all the reverse pattern valve bodies are also manual only.  What I'd like is for one that shifts either manually or automatically if left in drive that has the PRN123 pattern.  That way I can shift manually on a calumn shift without concern of accidently shifting into neutral (been there, done that many years ago, great way to force an engine build!).

Thanks in advance, Jim

[Mopar Mitch]

Unless things have changed in the past ~10 years, i believe that once you make it a reverse/manual, you cannot keep it fully automatice as well, and... you can no longer drop down into 2 or 1st while in 3rd, or 2nd, respectively.   I have a fully automatic 727 that I can manually shift up/down any gear/ any speed, still keep it fully automatic, as well!   Its a TransGo  (if my long term memory is correct) shift kit.    I would NOT recommend reverse valve body unless you'll only be doing strip drag racing.

[Road_Runner]

Unless things have changed in the past ~10 years, i believe that once you make it a reverse/manual, you cannot keep it fully automatice as well, and... you can no longer drop down into 2 or 1st while in 3rd, or 2nd, respectively.   I have a fully automatic 727 that I can manually shift up/down any gear/ any speed, still keep it fully automatic, as well!   Its a TransGo  (if my long term memory is correct) shift kit.    I would NOT recommend reverse valve body unless you'll only be doing strip drag racing.

This will be for a street car with occasional trips down the track so I wouldn't consider a fully manual trans shifting in either direction!  Looking at your avatar, do you autocross with an automatic?  If so, do you see it as a help or a hinderance vs. a manual?  I've only ever raced a manual around the cones, but might like to take the Barracuda autocrossing with its slapstick auto.

Later, Jim

[Mopar Mitch]

Hi Jim,

The car has always been an automatic... for pylon autocrossing, which is what I've primarirly done with it from my ownership in 1975.. raced in serious national SCCA competition with the Solo/autocross events, you simply leave it in 1st gear for most courses, maybe shift into 2nd... depends upon the course layout... I've run 3.91, 3.55 and 3.23... even tried 4.30... but the 3.23 works best as you never have to shift... typically 1000 rpm per every 10mph.. and you avg about 40-60mph...   a 3.5 or 3.9 gear mandates 2nd gear more often and I find it not as responsive as a 3.23 in 1st gear.    What you DON"t want to be doing is constantly shifting in an autocross.. there simply isn't time to do it... its too fast and quick; shifting only disrupts the flow of the driving in competition and results in slower course tmes.  Many other past pony/muscle cars have competed well, and have won national championships, with their car as an automatic.

Having a manual is ok... but again, you DON't want to be constantly shifting.   The trick is to get into and stay in the gear... NOT SHIFTING.... there's no time for it and it only causes disruption.  I personally favor the automatic so it's one less thing to do... and IF I ever shift (up/down) I never miss a shift (shift kit makes it possible).

I also have recently been running some hi-speed road course tracks for "social" lapping track days... I have no problems with the automatic... typically all 2nd/3rd/2nd/3rd... avg speeds ~70mph... max ~105-115 down some certain long stretches in 3rd gear.... downshift into 2nd to help slow the car down.

NOTE:  Deep trans pans are NOT advised since they have too much fluid and then it'll run up the dip stick tube and potentially spill out onto the exhaust headers while making hard, decelerating/braking left-hand turns/curves under hard g-force (+1~+1.5 g-force is common).... I've found the standard depth trans pan is A-ok and not allowing spills.

I'd imagine that IF someone wanted the lightest setup, for lightest vehicle weight, then an all-aluminum manual setup vs. a 727 would probably have that advantage of less weight.

Also, for what its worth, with an automatic, I find it easier to use both feet... one on the gas.. the other on the brake... trail-braking and inducing torque when needed... personal opinions and skill/technique may vary.

Ramming gears with a pistol-grip is very cool... and I do miss that for the "fun" of it (I used to own a 340 4spd Chally).... but I've since added the automatic pistol-grip shift handle (with trigger)... its cool for me!

[Road_Runner]

Hi Jim,

The car has always been an automatic... for pylon autocrossing, which is what I've primarirly done with it from my ownership in 1975.. raced in serious national SCCA competition with the Solo/autocross events, you simply leave it in 1st gear for most courses, maybe shift into 2nd... depends upon the course layout... I've run 3.91, 3.55 and 3.23... even tried 4.30... but the 3.23 works best as you never have to shift... typically 1000 rpm per every 10mph.. and you avg about 40-60mph...   a 3.5 or 3.9 gear mandates 2nd gear more often and I find it not as responsive as a 3.23 in 1st gear.    What you DON"t want to be doing is constantly shifting in an autocross.. there simply isn't time to do it... its too fast and quick; shifting only disrupts the flow of the driving in competition and results in slower course tmes.  Many other past pony/muscle cars have competed well, and have won national championships, with their car as an automatic.

Having a manual is ok... but again, you DON't want to be constantly shifting.   The trick is to get into and stay in the gear... NOT SHIFTING.... there's no time for it and it only causes disruption.  I personally favor the automatic so it's one less thing to do... and IF I ever shift (up/down) I never miss a shift (shift kit makes it possible).

I also have recently been running some hi-speed road course tracks for "social" lapping track days... I have no problems with the automatic... typically all 2nd/3rd/2nd/3rd... avg speeds ~70mph... max ~105-115 down some certain long stretches in 3rd gear.... downshift into 2nd to help slow the car down.

NOTE:  Deep trans pans are NOT advised since they have too much fluid and then it'll run up the dip stick tube and potentially spill out onto the exhaust headers while making hard, decelerating/braking left-hand turns/curves under hard g-force (+1~+1.5 g-force is common).... I've found the standard depth trans pan is A-ok and not allowing spills.

I'd imagine that IF someone wanted the lightest setup, for lightest vehicle weight, then an all-aluminum manual setup vs. a 727 would probably have that advantage of less weight.

Also, for what its worth, with an automatic, I find it easier to use both feet... one on the gas.. the other on the brake... trail-braking and inducing torque when needed... personal opinions and skill/technique may vary.

Ramming gears with a pistol-grip is very cool... and I do miss that for the "fun" of it (I used to own a 340 4spd Chally).... but I've since added the automatic pistol-grip shift handle (with trigger)... its cool for me!

Thanks for sharing your experiences with your car.  Do you have a thread where you discussed your suspension setup?  I've always equated autocross with manual trans probably for the fun factor more than quicker times, but if the Barracuda could be made to handle an autocross course without too many modifications, I'd really like to give it a try.  It's been too many years since I did any kind of racing!  Thanks again, Jim

[Mopar Mitch]

Hi Jim... Well, I have posted various misc info on my car within C-C.com, as well as other Mopar chat lines, but here is some more specs:

Owned the car since 1975.. originally a 72 318 RallyPack, ps, pdb, always hemi-ornge with black v-top and wht interior.  As I discovered autocross events, I made a decision to become involved and have some FUN!!!  So, per typical culb "rule books" (SCCA and related others) I gradually modified the car and made it into a T/A for rule/legality... long story short.. its a detailed exteior T/A clone.. for SCCA Solo/autocross rules alowance... became very succesful winning regional championships all thru the late 70s thru the 80s.. into early 90s.  Car is setup for national-level full Solo/autocross competition for the E/Street Prepared SCCA class... a very competitive class for pony cars!.. and remains street legal per rules (basically bolt-on mods).

1.25" solid front sway bar; 1.0" solid rear sway bar.. rear had 3-point adj points but changed to 1-point.. may change that again... (each custom made in late 70s by a past SCCA TransAm road racer); urethane fram mounts; I've played with the end link bushings between rubber and  poly to suite my driving style.

Red KONI "D" fully adjustable f/r shocks, revlaved for extra firmness.

1.24" (425 pounds/inch) TBs (I tried many different TBs from a past company called California Suspension/Moparts in the mid-80s... settled on the biggest TBs they had... BEST IMPROVEMNT you can make -- DON'T BE AFRAID OF BIG TBs...  currently, Firm Feel offers available 1.18 and I believe they will make you 1.2..22, 1.24 ... the 1.24 is the biggest that will fit into the hex... remember, the prof SCCA Mopar T/A and AAR cars used ~1.4" dia TBs... those are big... while the 1.24 are still relatively small.

Fiberglass FlexAForm leaf springs rated 225# / inch.. having a 5% free arch.. compressed down to ~1.5" arch remaining with ~1/3 tank gas (nearly flat); poly f/r bushings.  I had prevlsy used de-arched SS springs... too heavy and not stiff enough for roll-control.

Custom-made poly Offset Moog UCA bushing allowing more pos caster (I have ~+4.5) and neg camber (I have ~-1.75); toe-out for pylon autocross set at ~1/4"total out; for street/hyw I have it set at ~zero.

Recaro-type light-weight front seats (4-pt race harness for driver.. to be upgraded to 5-pt)

T/A fast ratio PS (long pitman and long idler arms accordingly -- my racing budy John Sandberg AAR was THE first person to discover and publish this info back in the mid-late 70s for the correct long idler arm via SIAC newsletter).  Also have a remore PS fluid cooler.  SMALL dia steering whell (I'm curently using a "Superior" brand deep dish 10.5" dia thick padded wheel... helps make quicker steering response thru the pylons.  SAGINAW PS PUMP IS MANDATORY!.. NOT THE FEDERAL PUMP!

Engine: 340 T/A with match-ported heads per SCCA limited 1" depth rules; stock 10-1 CR; stock .429/.444 lift hyd cam (per SCCA E/SP rules limits).  Hooker 1.75" comp headers; 2.5" pipes into Flowmaster mufflers under rear seat with dumps in front of diff.  Have run with LD340/Holley 750 (or Carter 625) for lt-wt, but currently running the old six-pack.. for good looks... 4bbl setup is 30#, six-pack setup a whopping 60#!... six pack setup is all ProMax parts.. runs great!

Engine compartment is all chromed... did this in the late 70s as I converted to the T/A clone.

OIL PAN is stock but with horizontal baffels welded in f/r/sides... ABSOLUTE REQUIREMENT to save your engine... or just buy/install the new Milodon race pan, etc.

Brakes are all stock from 1972 using semi-metalic Wagner pads front, organic shoes rear... intend to upgrade some day.  Also using the light-weight aluminum/plastic master brake cylinder (allowed per SCCA rules).

Currently no SubFrameConnectors (SCCA rules in the past did not allow them to be welded... now they can be welded only front/rear... so.. possibly will eventually add, however, MY unibody is pretty stiff overall.... decisions being made about the style and type if/when i do (the full length floor types are NOT SCCA E/SP legal... again, per rules, has to be attached to the front frame/rear frame (not the leaf spring point).

Kframe is stock w/o any welded reinforcements (not allowed per SCCA E/SP).

Stock LCA w/o any mods.

Transmission is 727 with generic shift kit parts... can be manually shifted up/down any speed/gear;  fully automatic; B&M HoleShot torque convrt; stock-depth trans pan; aux trans fluid cooler (currently have a large Cummin Chrysler unity that fits perfect... maybe too big, but works/fits... and price was right (free from a friend).

Rear gear is currently cone-type 3.23 suregrip 8.75.... have used 3.5 and 3.9 but the 3.2 allows mostly 1st gear pylon runs w/o any need to shift back/forth like the 3.5 or 3.9 requires.  The 3.2 is also a great hwy/road course lapping gear!   Pinion snubber is stock bt slightly elavated to be closer to floor pan... allowing ~1.5" clearance.

Mechanical oil pressure gauge.  Mopar chrome box electronic ignition; Mallory Rev-Limiter adjustable tach.

Battery is trunk mounted (group 24)

Fender lips are flushed/pulled (still appear stock) so to accomodate 16x10 lt-wt road race rims with Hoosier 275-45-16 DOT autocross race radials f/r.... SCCA E/SP rules allow full fender flairing if desired.

No radio or stereo speakers (removed all, and the old graphic eqlzr).. which =~60 pounds!

Still have the stock-size factory alternatr, but intend to install the ltwt Denso unit.

Car has been carefully weight balanced with driver and ~1/3 tank of gas:  52% front/48% rear.. w/o driver weighs ~3150-3200 max in best race weight-reduced scenario (lt wt seats, 4bbl setup, road race rims, lt wt trans cooler instead of hvydty Cummins cooler).

I've been doing some hi-speed road course lapping events for "social fun" for the past ~4-5 years; may get into a competition season series in 2014-15.. again Solo/Autocross.. except changing towards the hi-speed events instead of the med-speed pylon events... I ALWAYS encourage ppl to make mods to their cars based upon careful spending/choosing of parts/mods as per your local "club's" rule books.. so.. that you don't end up under/over prepped for competition events.. you want to be "competitive" and prepped accordingly.

I can drive thje car anywhere/anyday  as far as needed.. even cross country, but I have trailered it and preserve the suspension, etc in doing so.  for street/hwy, I drive on 15x8 vintage road race monilite rims with BFG T/A 255/60 front and 275-60 rear new tires... nothing great but they serve their purposes and add extra cushion with 60-series sidewalls.  i also have a set of 16x8 vintage minilite road race rims with new BFG G-Force Comp-2 255-50-16 tires for hi-speed lapping events.. can drive on these to/from the local road race tracks (typical 1-2-3 hour hwy drive for me.. a nice enjoyable ride!); may eventually get a new frsh set of Hoosier A6 race radials (40 tread wear!) for serious track competition;   who knows IF I'll ever get a set of 200 tread wear tires and newims (~18x10.. and ~275-35-18) for other appropriate events.  I'm recently w/o my full-size trailer as I sold it, but, I can borrow it back if needed.. or may get a small tow-behind tire utility trailer for the race tires, etc.

Just time and money!!

I encourage all to see/read the Mopar Action issue August 2006 as they did a really nice feature on my T/a and John Sandberg's race AAR which we've done the autocrossing together.  John's AAR is a nationally-prepared SCCA C/Prepared class competitor and won many titles.

In recent years, I'm the "Pace Car" for w2w road race events in the midwest areas through a club I belong to (MidWest Council of Sports Car Clubs...  www.mcscc.org).  I'be trying to get more MOPAR drivers out to the w2w events and the hi-speed autocross competition events... hope to see some of you out there!

I attend various car shows on the wknds, but, MY SHOW is ON THE RACE TRACK!.

T/Ake care,
Mitch

[74BlueFish]

Great detailed post of your mods, very interesting Mitch.

[Road_Runner]

Hi Jim... Well, I have posted various misc info on my car within C-C.com, as well as other Mopar chat lines, but here is some more specs:

Owned the car since 1975.. originally a 72 318 RallyPack, ps, pdb, always hemi-ornge with black v-top and wht interior.  As I discovered autocross events, I made a decision to become involved and have some FUN!!!  So, per typical culb "rule books" (SCCA and related others) I gradually modified the car and made it into a T/A for rule/legality... long story short.. its a detailed exteior T/A clone.. for SCCA Solo/autocross rules alowance... became very succesful winning regional championships all thru the late 70s thru the 80s.. into early 90s.  Car is setup for national-level full Solo/autocross competition for the E/Street Prepared SCCA class... a very competitive class for pony cars!.. and remains street legal per rules (basically bolt-on mods).

1.25" solid front sway bar; 1.0" solid rear sway bar.. rear had 3-point adj points but changed to 1-point.. may change that again... (each custom made in late 70s by a past SCCA TransAm road racer); urethane fram mounts; I've played with the end link bushings between rubber and  poly to suite my driving style.

Red KONI "D" fully adjustable f/r shocks, revlaved for extra firmness.

1.24" (425 pounds/inch) TBs (I tried many different TBs from a past company called California Suspension/Moparts in the mid-80s... settled on the biggest TBs they had... BEST IMPROVEMNT you can make -- DON'T BE AFRAID OF BIG TBs...  currently, Firm Feel offers available 1.18 and I believe they will make you 1.2..22, 1.24 ... the 1.24 is the biggest that will fit into the hex... remember, the prof SCCA Mopar T/A and AAR cars used ~1.4" dia TBs... those are big... while the 1.24 are still relatively small.

Fiberglass FlexAForm leaf springs rated 225# / inch.. having a 5% free arch.. compressed down to ~1.5" arch remaining with ~1/3 tank gas (nearly flat); poly f/r bushings.  I had prevlsy used de-arched SS springs... too heavy and not stiff enough for roll-control.

Custom-made poly Offset Moog UCA bushing allowing more pos caster (I have ~+4.5) and neg camber (I have ~-1.75); toe-out for pylon autocross set at ~1/4"total out; for street/hyw I have it set at ~zero.

Recaro-type light-weight front seats (4-pt race harness for driver.. to be upgraded to 5-pt)

T/A fast ratio PS (long pitman and long idler arms accordingly -- my racing budy John Sandberg AAR was THE first person to discover and publish this info back in the mid-late 70s for the correct long idler arm via SIAC newsletter).  Also have a remore PS fluid cooler.  SMALL dia steering whell (I'm curently using a "Superior" brand deep dish 10.5" dia thick padded wheel... helps make quicker steering response thru the pylons.  SAGINAW PS PUMP IS MANDATORY!.. NOT THE FEDERAL PUMP!

Engine: 340 T/A with match-ported heads per SCCA limited 1" depth rules; stock 10-1 CR; stock .429/.444 lift hyd cam (per SCCA E/SP rules limits).  Hooker 1.75" comp headers; 2.5" pipes into Flowmaster mufflers under rear seat with dumps in front of diff.  Have run with LD340/Holley 750 (or Carter 625) for lt-wt, but currently running the old six-pack.. for good looks... 4bbl setup is 30#, six-pack setup a whopping 60#!... six pack setup is all ProMax parts.. runs great!

Engine compartment is all chromed... did this in the late 70s as I converted to the T/A clone.

OIL PAN is stock but with horizontal baffels welded in f/r/sides... ABSOLUTE REQUIREMENT to save your engine... or just buy/install the new Milodon race pan, etc.

Brakes are all stock from 1972 using semi-metalic Wagner pads front, organic shoes rear... intend to upgrade some day.  Also using the light-weight aluminum/plastic master brake cylinder (allowed per SCCA rules).

Currently no SubFrameConnectors (SCCA rules in the past did not allow them to be welded... now they can be welded only front/rear... so.. possibly will eventually add, however, MY unibody is pretty stiff overall.... decisions being made about the style and type if/when i do (the full length floor types are NOT SCCA E/SP legal... again, per rules, has to be attached to the front frame/rear frame (not the leaf spring point).

Kframe is stock w/o any welded reinforcements (not allowed per SCCA E/SP).

Stock LCA w/o any mods.

Transmission is 727 with generic shift kit parts... can be manually shifted up/down any speed/gear;  fully automatic; B&M HoleShot torque convrt; stock-depth trans pan; aux trans fluid cooler (currently have a large Cummin Chrysler unity that fits perfect... maybe too big, but works/fits... and price was right (free from a friend).

Rear gear is currently cone-type 3.23 suregrip 8.75.... have used 3.5 and 3.9 but the 3.2 allows mostly 1st gear pylon runs w/o any need to shift back/forth like the 3.5 or 3.9 requires.  The 3.2 is also a great hwy/road course lapping gear!   Pinion snubber is stock bt slightly elavated to be closer to floor pan... allowing ~1.5" clearance.

Mechanical oil pressure gauge.  Mopar chrome box electronic ignition; Mallory Rev-Limiter adjustable tach.

Battery is trunk mounted (group 24)

Fender lips are flushed/pulled (still appear stock) so to accomodate 16x10 lt-wt road race rims with Hoosier 275-45-16 DOT autocross race radials f/r.... SCCA E/SP rules allow full fender flairing if desired.

No radio or stereo speakers (removed all, and the old graphic eqlzr).. which =~60 pounds!

Still have the stock-size factory alternatr, but intend to install the ltwt Denso unit.

Car has been carefully weight balanced with driver and ~1/3 tank of gas:  52% front/48% rear.. w/o driver weighs ~3150-3200 max in best race weight-reduced scenario (lt wt seats, 4bbl setup, road race rims, lt wt trans cooler instead of hvydty Cummins cooler).

I've been doing some hi-speed road course lapping events for "social fun" for the past ~4-5 years; may get into a competition season series in 2014-15.. again Solo/Autocross.. except changing towards the hi-speed events instead of the med-speed pylon events... I ALWAYS encourage ppl to make mods to their cars based upon careful spending/choosing of parts/mods as per your local "club's" rule books.. so.. that you don't end up under/over prepped for competition events.. you want to be "competitive" and prepped accordingly.

I can drive thje car anywhere/anyday  as far as needed.. even cross country, but I have trailered it and preserve the suspension, etc in doing so.  for street/hwy, I drive on 15x8 vintage road race monilite rims with BFG T/A 255/60 front and 275-60 rear new tires... nothing great but they serve their purposes and add extra cushion with 60-series sidewalls.  i also have a set of 16x8 vintage minilite road race rims with new BFG G-Force Comp-2 255-50-16 tires for hi-speed lapping events.. can drive on these to/from the local road race tracks (typical 1-2-3 hour hwy drive for me.. a nice enjoyable ride!); may eventually get a new frsh set of Hoosier A6 race radials (40 tread wear!) for serious track competition;   who knows IF I'll ever get a set of 200 tread wear tires and newims (~18x10.. and ~275-35-18) for other appropriate events.  I'm recently w/o my full-size trailer as I sold it, but, I can borrow it back if needed.. or may get a small tow-behind tire utility trailer for the race tires, etc.

Just time and money!!

I encourage all to see/read the Mopar Action issue August 2006 as they did a really nice feature on my T/a and John Sandberg's race AAR which we've done the autocrossing together.  John's AAR is a nationally-prepared SCCA C/Prepared class competitor and won many titles.

In recent years, I'm the "Pace Car" for w2w road race events in the midwest areas through a club I belong to (MidWest Council of Sports Car Clubs...  www.mcscc.org).  I'be trying to get more MOPAR drivers out to the w2w events and the hi-speed autocross competition events... hope to see some of you out there!

I attend various car shows on the wknds, but, MY SHOW is ON THE RACE TRACK!.

T/Ake care,
Mitch

WOW! Thank you again for all the information!  The parts I have for my Barracuda are a good deal less heavy duty than what you're running today but may serve to get me started and see where it goes from there.  I've actually got a 73 340 long block and 70 OEM six pack & air cleaner plus a new set of carbs, and a set of 70 hipo exhaust manifolds that I was planning on using, but I probably need to ride down one Sunday when they're holding an event to see if I can get a copy of the rules.  I know when I ran before, there were so few 'modified' cars that didn't fit in a specific class that the local SCCA just let them all run against eachother.  So highly modified cars ran against cars that may only have a few modifications that knocked them out of a specific stock or near stock class.  For that reason I kept the Pontiac Trans Am I was racing 100% original except for rubber.  When I ran across the group running at Atlanta Motor Speedway last summer, there seemed to be a lot more muscle era cars running so perhaps its a great time to get back into it.  Thanks again for all the info, I've cut & pasted your suspension info for future use, and I'll see if I can find a copy of the article about your car.

Later, Jim

[Mopar Mitch]

T/Anks Jim!  I'd love to see your car out on the track somewhere... pylon autocrossing is fun, but, our cars are a little "big" and quick steering with a very firm suspension is mandatory along with sticky tires.   Also, consider searching your area for any road course events where you can truly use the horsepower of our cars to better satisfaction.. learn to drive in such events as HPDE (Hi-Performance Driving Experience) .. costs vary... ~$100-$250 perday (typically getting ~3-6 ~20-30 minute lapping sessions at ~60-70-80mph, and "wknd pkgs" are at ~$250-$350.    The single biggest factor will be your increased driving skill gained by attending whatever events you choose...  pylon autocross events cost ~$20-$45 per day pending the site location and hosting club and you'l get ~4-6-8 timed runs at ~45 seconds each (memory of the course layout will become 2nd nature eventually to you).  You'll find and meet new friends that will encourage you to get better at the sport and return more in the future.

[RCCDrew]

Sorry to resurrect this thread from the dead but does anyone ever have a problem with the sprag? I figured with all that first gear decelerating in autocross that the sprag might come apart. I had one destroy my transmission case years ago doing burnouts in first gear.

[vinb]

Try and contact Paul Forte at Tubro-Action in Jacksonville, FL. he could probably help you out.

http://www.turboaction.com/frame.html