Engine rebuild warranty

[VTMopar]

What are reasonable warranty expectations with an engine rebuilder on a rebuild of a 40 plus year old 440 motor?    Not a racing application......a mild rebuild for street driving of say about 5,000 miles annually.     
None?      6 months.   12 months?  Longer? 

VT Mopar

[Chryco Psycho]

My Machinist & I basically covered a year but it was a lot more flexable than date specific , basically you can tell the difference between & normal problem & abuse so we would make it right if it seemed to be something we were responsible for & would deny warranty if it was obviously abuse that caused the problem . One engine had a cam lobe fail but instead of working with us to solve it the customer tried to blow up the engine , when he finally contacted us / let us look at the problem the engine was badly hurt but still running , he simply could not cause a catastrophic failure LOL . we negotiated a price & rebuilt it , had he let us retune the engine shortly after the problem started & simple clean out , new oil pump , can & lifters would have solved the problem .

[VTMopar]

Well, maybe I should be specific.....  Mine cracked a cylinder after a few hundred miles.....  No abuse.    No sign of head gasket failure.....  No indication the engine builder did anything wrong.     Just a 40 plus year old block that was checked out (mag fluxed) in the rebuild process, but it simply failed 

 An expensive failure.....How does this figure into a warranty (if any).     

[jimynick]

The thing here is that you paid and allegedly got, a good job of Magnafluxing; so, either the magnaflux job was, shall we say, less than optimal OR something else caused the cylinder to fail.  Well, what could that be? The first things that come to mind are a coolant leak that may have hydraulically damaged it or a physical piece in the cylinder, but either of these should be able to be diagnosed  and be evident. The only other thing is the thickness of the cylinder wall and you may be wise to have it sonically checked for thickness. Was the crack vertical or horizontal, at the top, middle or bottom of the cylinder? Regardless of the final outcome, in my opinion- I know, I know; your builder should come to the party and his participation should be governed by what you finally discover to be the cause, as you paid him to be a professional, and that's what it's all about. Don't blame it all on a 40 year old block, since there's lots of Model T's still running just fine. Good hunting and good luck! 

[VTMopar]

Oh there was coolant......  Lots .... At about 60 mph I had a plume of white smoke/steam.....which is when I shut her down and called for a flatbed.    They checked the motor to try and find the cause and found no evidence of head gasket failure, and sonic testing didn't reveal anything.     They can't find anything .    The crack was vertical from the top of the cylinder down a few inches....... 

There are 2 parties involved:   My mechanics and an independent engine builder.    Both have excellent reputations, but I'm dealing with my mechanics only as they "subbed" out the engine rebuild (with my knowledge).   

[72cudamaan]

If it ran for a few hundred miles before there was any indication of a problem, I would believe that the crack is fresh.
Were the cylinder's bored oversize? Was there any indication that the cylinder had a thin wall? Does the crack radiate from the deck surface and down the cylinder? and if so does it start at a bolt hole? Important info if there may be a possibility that
the builder should shoulder any blame.

[VTMopar]

72cudaman:     It was a 66 block with an estimated 75,000 miles that was bored .3 over and all new parts putting out 440 hp on the engine dyno.    I'm certain the crack was fresh.....  The engine builder ran it on his dyno and my mechanics dynoed it again and drove it for a hundred miles before I got it and put the 400 miles before it went.   The crack did not start at the bolt hole, and did seem to radiate down from the top of the cylinder.  The sonic testing after the fact didn't reveal any thinness in the cylinder wall....    Bottom line is engine builder says he did nothing wrong and doesn't feel responsible; Suggesting that with a 45 year old block, there is a certain amount of risk (bad luck) in this process.     Of course, that bad luck translates into big $$     

[72cudamaan]

He may not be responsible and may have done nothing wrong, but if I were in his shoes I probably would offer
at least free labor to build another motor for you. I guess it just depends on how far he would be willing to
go to keep a good reputation. Generosity is a virtue that goes a long long way in this business. I hope he works with you.

[Chryco Psycho]

The crack likely was non existant when it was magged , sonic sonic checking it should not cost more than 1k then swap all the parts over .
It would seem to be no ones fault just bad luck but it would be nice if the machinist gave you some kind break on the work

[torredcuda]

Did the engine builder give you a warranty and if so what does it say. Unless they missed the crack when they magged it ( which is unlikely as they usually show up pretty well) then they did nothing wrong and you are asking them to warranty a 40+ yr old used part.

[VTMopar]

I appreciate the thoughts and comments.     I do not know if the engine builder did anything "wrong" or missed anything.    He has a good reputation and I assume he did a very good job.  But, how can I really tell?   

There was no written contract and a warranty wasn't discussed.     My mechanics have done a ton of work on my challengers and have done their part to step up ( not charging me to remove/ reinstall the new motor).    The engine guy says he gave me a discount....still trying to decipher how much.... .But he's still looking for several thousand dollars for the new rebuild utilizing most of the components from the blown motor.   

Some of you might recall that this 440 is the same motor that I had the push rod issue with last spring when I took the Challenger across country and had her shipped home from Colorado.   There's no direct connection with the bad cylinder, but from my perspective, I've had to absorb a lot of extra $$ (and hassle) with this rebuild and it's aftermath, and through it all The engine builder is doing pretty well.... 

I'm obviously frustrated, but I don't have a lot of options.   I do appreciate the risk associated with driving these cars, but I was just wondering what experience others may have had with their rebuilds.    The obvious lesson is to discuss any warranty expectations before the job begins, no matter how well you know the folks doing the work.   

  Again, thanks for the thoughts & responses.     

[jimynick]

So, the bad cylinder fairy just flew down and decided to visit your motor, eh? BS! There's nothing magic about engine blocks and I'd want to see the actual readouts of the bad cylinder. I also don't get where the guy's coming after you for "thousands" more to fix this thing. Sleeve it, put the piston back in it's hole, replace the rings on that hole if they show marking, check the bearings/cam and crank and put it back together. I just got one of my 340 blocks sleeved and you'd need to be damn observant to find it- and it cost less than $200 to do it with a professional machinist doing the job. Doing it that way, you save all the machining that you've already paid for. Don't let anybody talk trash to you about sleeves- every diesel on the road runs them and they go for zillions of miles, not to mention fueler engines, either. But that's just my 

[blown motor]

  I have two sleeves in my 340. After they were put in I had to look really close to see which cylinders it was. The engine runs great and I wouldn't be afraid to do it again.

[VTMopar]

Sleeving was considered.   However, there was a lot of schrapnel flying around as the piston broke and actually gouged out the cylinder wall.  Also, there was concern as the crack was right at the very top of the cylinder...... Perhaps affecting the sleeve     I don't know much about them, but from what I heard  I was uncomfortable and decided to go with a new block (found a 71 for a couple of bills).   Point is, due to the amount of stuff flying around, they needed to replace the pistons, heads needed to be reworked, and other components due to the damage...... So a fair amount of new parts and labor to take everything apart, check and reinstall..... 

[jimynick]

WAIT a minute! NOW we find out the piston broke?! WTF? How did the other pistons get infected by the debris? From the crankcase? Unless the pieces actually flew out of the intake valve, into the intake and were inhaled by another cylinder, that should be a non-starter and damage to the tops indicates inhalation of foreign objects. Heads damaged? Both of them? Jesus, this wasn't some "gee, there's some white smoke coming out the tailpipes" deal here. Were the pistons forged, cast or HE? Are the valves in one piece or have they broken? Same for rings, what was the gap set at? Like I mentioned earlier, there's no magic here- SOMETHING failed and the big questions here are what, where, when and why? You owe it to yourself to sort this out or these guys are going to hang it all on you and unless you had the tach at 8000 when it all went south, I don't think it's all your fault, but you've got to figure out what happened here. Based on the dollars involved, I'd gather the pieces and take them to another competent machinist for his opinion. At the end of the day, it's your car and your engine and money, but I don't like to see anybody get screwed gratuitously and it sure looks like you're a contender here. Good luck.