Author Topic: another 440 cooling topic....  (Read 9748 times)

Offline HP_Cuda

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2014 - 08:36:09 PM »
The restriction with the 440 source pump is made worse with the 440 source water pump housing. Basically The pump vanes dont move much water/coolant and the housing passages are more restrictive than a stock housing. crazy huh?

Dutch - I think you will see a vast improvement with the the pump. How hard is it to get a pump in NL because I may be able to help you out.

Bryan
1970 Cuda Clone 440 4 speed - sublime green
1970 Cuda 383 4 speed - yellow - SOLD




Offline cudabob496

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2014 - 08:51:38 PM »
jup...I know, and yes it is  :burnout:

cranked it up to 1200 ,didn`t make any difference  :dunno:


Regarding more rpm means more heat, so no improvement: Depends on the pump curve. flowrate verses rpm is not always linear, depending on pump design, the pump curve, and the system.  Going from 600 rpm to 1000 may see better overall cooling. In this case he did not, but my Honda stays cooler at 1000 rpm verses 600 rpm, at a stop sign. My Cuda seems to stay cooler at idle at 1200 rpm, than 600 rpm.  Maybe flowrate at 1200 is more than double that at 600 rpm, since it is a centrifugal pump, and not positive displacement. I think alternators and centrifugal pumps can be less efficient at low rpms.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014 - 09:38:58 PM by cudabob496 »
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline Strawdawg

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2014 - 09:05:05 PM »
The restriction with the 440 source pump is made worse with the 440 source water pump housing. Basically The pump vanes dont move much water/coolant and the housing passages are more restrictive than a stock housing. crazy huh?

Dutch - I think you will see a vast improvement with the the pump. How hard is it to get a pump in NL because I may be able to help you out.

Bryan

yep, I forgot the housing has the restriction

Offline dodj

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2014 - 10:03:56 PM »
The restriction with the 440 source pump is made worse with the 440 source water pump housing. Basically The pump vanes dont move much water/coolant and the housing passages are more restrictive than a stock housing. crazy huh?

Dutch - I think you will see a vast improvement with the the pump. How hard is it to get a pump in NL because I may be able to help you out.

Bryan
The testing I've seen shows moving more coolant than stock. The passages 'appear' more restrictive but they are not. I replaced a stock pump/housing with a 440 source pairing and cooling is better than ever. Idling in 90*+ temps and engine temp does'nt increase. It used to with the stock configuration.
Scott
1973 Challenger  440 4 spd 
2007.5 3500 6.7 Cummins Diesel, Anarchy tuned.
Good friends don't let friends do stupid things. ........alone.

Offline dodj

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2014 - 10:14:04 PM »
Performance (flow) of the pump is, in large part determines by the gasket thickness, because it sets the clearances of the impeller to housing. The 440 source pump with stock housing would be an unknown as far as clearance goes. If you use the 440 source pump and housing and recommended gasket, it flows well. You can get the same poor flow characteristics with virtually any mixed pump and housing combo if the impeller blades are too far from the housing walls.
Scott
1973 Challenger  440 4 spd 
2007.5 3500 6.7 Cummins Diesel, Anarchy tuned.
Good friends don't let friends do stupid things. ........alone.

Offline cudabob496

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2014 - 10:28:14 PM »
also, at idle, if engine compartment well vented, fan will move more air.
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline HP_Cuda

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2014 - 12:36:53 AM »

I certainly didn't like the vanes of the 440source one and swapped it with the Milodon.

It sure seems that even with both together at idle it would build up some bigtime heat.
1970 Cuda Clone 440 4 speed - sublime green
1970 Cuda 383 4 speed - yellow - SOLD

Offline cudabob496

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2014 - 02:36:02 AM »
underdrive pulleys can make the alternator and waterpump less effective at low rpm.
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline dutch

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2014 - 03:09:49 AM »
under hood temps are crazy on these cars.  What would be a good way to reduce that? I would love to build a steel aar hood, just haven`t found a flat hood to start with yet.  I can see maybe drop engine temps a tad with cold air induction, but I guess that wont help that much inside the engine compartment. Mine has the rallye hood and I have thought about opening up the scoops, but those are so small.... I can`t see that helping very much with temps down there. thoughts..?

underdrive pulleys can make the alternator and waterpump less effective at low rpm.

I`ve been asked before. I have stock pulleys on mine, I think... what are those underdrive pulleys exactly? and why would anyone have them if they don`t work?


The restriction with the 440 source pump is made worse with the 440 source water pump housing. Basically The pump vanes dont move much water/coolant and the housing passages are more restrictive than a stock housing. crazy huh?

Dutch - I think you will see a vast improvement with the the pump. How hard is it to get a pump in NL because I may be able to help you out.

Bryan
I`ll see what the shop here can do for me first. Thanks for the offer  :2thumbs:


*** Bart ***

Offline cudabob496

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2014 - 07:00:02 AM »
I have a fiberglass Cuda hood, and put vent holes in it.
I also removed the splash guards around the wheel wells, and removed
the rubber gasket that seals the back of the hood to the cowl.

my crank pulley is slightly smaller, so it spins the alternator and waterpump
a little slower at idle, but is designed to save hp by spinning the alternator
and water pump slower at high rpms as well.  maybe a 5 hp savings.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2014 - 07:02:30 AM by cudabob496 »
72 Cuda, owned 25 years. 496, with ported Stage VI heads, .625 in solid roller, 254/258 at .050, 3500 stall, 3.91 rear. 850 Holley DP, Reverse manual valve body.

1999 Trans Am, LS1, heads, cam, headers, stall, etc! Love to surprise the rice rockets with this one. They seem so confident, then it's "what the heck just happened?"

2011 Kawasaki Z1000

Offline dodj

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2014 - 07:01:31 AM »
I'm just reporting my personal situation regarding cooling - YMMV. I did find this thread informative from Dodge Charger.com.
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,60599.75.html

Scott
1973 Challenger  440 4 spd 
2007.5 3500 6.7 Cummins Diesel, Anarchy tuned.
Good friends don't let friends do stupid things. ........alone.

Offline Strawdawg

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2014 - 08:51:52 AM »
Dutch, give us some more info.

Is the car an automatic or a stick?

If the car is an automatic, does the radiator that you installed have a transmission cooler built in, and are you using it?  Or, are you only using an external tranny cooler?

If the car is an automatic, what stall is the torque converter?  Wondering if the converter is slipping excessively at cruise.  Cruise rpm should preferably above the stall of the converter or very close to it to prevent excessive heat generation.

I would like to assume that the radiator is well sealed to the core support so air flow must go thru the core and cannot go around it?

When you remove the radiator cap and look at the tubes in the radiator, are they at least 1" wide?

Have you removed the thermostat and dropped it into a pan of hot water to check what at temperature it is fully open? (I have seen quite a few imported thermostats that don't open fully until a very high temp in recent years}

If you crank the car when cold and let it sit and idle, does it gradually get hotter and hotter?  Or, does this only occur after the car has been driven?

Is the fan hard to turn by hand when the engine is turned off after the car has warmed up?



Now, if you are using the mopar water pump housing, I kinda doubt the pump is the problem as long as the impeller is firmly affixed to the shaft and not slipping.  I agree the Milodon is a superior design but I don't think it is the culprit if working properly.  It does not sound like the car is being run hard enuf to need a superior water pump at this point.

All cars run high temps under the hood.  Cars that run headers run even higher temps under the hood.  However, when the car is moving, air should exit under the car due to the pressurized air flow coming thru the grill and when sitting a properly sized/working fan will push it out.  The factory engineers were usually knowledgeable and experienced enuf to understand air flow over a period of years so that mistakes were eliminated if made with successive models.

As you are running 4.10 gears, you are putting more heat into the system from the increased rpm but you are not the only guy running more rpm. It would seem that you are not pushing the engine so that it is mainly cruising so the load is not great on the engine and therefore it is not making a lot of heat as it would if you were racing it.

It runs hotter than would be expected on the road at relatively low cruising speeds which would seem to indicate a lack of air flow.  In the old days, they used to tell us that a car did not need a fan once speed was up to about 45 mph as the air stream provided more than the fan at that point.  I cannot say that is an universal number due to the variation of parameters involved.  I don't know if you have any stretches of road where you can run a consistent 60 mph to see what the coolant temp does in that situation.?

Not knowing anything about the Porsche coolant, I sure would like to see what happens if you try 100% water in the system or as close to that as you can practically obtain without jumping thru hoops.  Most modern cars don't turn the fan on until well over 200 degs F and I am wondering if there is a possibility where Porsche designed a matching coolant.

Sorry for too many questions but I have learned over the years you have to look at the system and not just the parts...


Offline dutch

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2014 - 10:05:40 AM »
Dutch, give us some more info.

Is the car an automatic or a stick?
727
If the car is an automatic, does the radiator that you installed have a transmission cooler built in, and are you using it?  Or, are you only using an external tranny cooler?
external
If the car is an automatic, what stall is the torque converter?  Wondering if the converter is slipping excessively at cruise.  Cruise rpm should preferably above the stall of the converter or very close to it to prevent excessive heat generation.
I don`t have a clue. it was in the car when I bought it and it went back in. Is there a way to determine? It picks up awesome and every shift gives you a kick in the butt
I would like to assume that the radiator is well sealed to the core support so air flow must go thru the core and cannot go around it?
There was a 1.5"gap at the top which I closed just this morning. Also I had to cut the 2 corners out of the shroud where the hoses connect so there are airholes there. I closed the gap around the top hose but the lower one is putting up a fight... I`ll get it though
When you remove the radiator cap and look at the tubes in the radiator, are they at least 1" wide?
can`t dee that but the rad block is exactly 2"wide so that would be about right
Have you removed the thermostat and dropped it into a pan of hot water to check what at temperature it is fully open? (I have seen quite a few imported thermostats that don't open fully until a very high temp in recent years}
checked before installation. After rebuilding the engine I had a new stat not opening resuling in a blown gasket. After that both heads were checked for cracks and vacuum filled the cooling system. no lekas, helt vacuum fine
If you crank the car when cold and let it sit and idle, does it gradually get hotter and hotter?  Or, does this only occur after the car has been driven?
never tried that
Is the fan hard to turn by hand when the engine is turned off after the car has warmed up?
funny, that`s the next question I was gonna ask. Took it for a drive this morning. 30mph around town, 50-65 out of town, hard accelerations, back into town and I read 195 when I stopped in my driveway. Let idle for a little while and slowly going up, but seems less fast compared to yesterday, still having the gap on the support and upper hose. I shut it down at 200 jumped out and felt the fan.  it was spinning almost as easy as when cold! I guess it`s supposed to be near tight at 200...?


Now, if you are using the mopar water pump housing, I kinda doubt the pump is the problem as long as the impeller is firmly affixed to the shaft and not slipping.  I agree the Milodon is a superior design but I don't think it is the culprit if working properly.  It does not sound like the car is being run hard enuf to need a superior water pump at this point.

All cars run high temps under the hood.  Cars that run headers run even higher temps under the hood.  However, when the car is moving, air should exit under the car due to the pressurized air flow coming thru the grill and when sitting a properly sized/working fan will push it out.  The factory engineers were usually knowledgeable and experienced enuf to understand air flow over a period of years so that mistakes were eliminated if made with successive models.

As you are running 4.10 gears, you are putting more heat into the system from the increased rpm but you are not the only guy running more rpm. It would seem that you are not pushing the engine so that it is mainly cruising so the load is not great on the engine and therefore it is not making a lot of heat as it would if you were racing it.

It runs hotter than would be expected on the road at relatively low cruising speeds which would seem to indicate a lack of air flow.  In the old days, they used to tell us that a car did not need a fan once speed was up to about 45 mph as the air stream provided more than the fan at that point.  I cannot say that is an universal number due to the variation of parameters involved.  I don't know if you have any stretches of road where you can run a consistent 60 mph to see what the coolant temp does in that situation.?

Not knowing anything about the Porsche coolant, I sure would like to see what happens if you try 100% water in the system or as close to that as you can practically obtain without jumping thru hoops.  Most modern cars don't turn the fan on until well over 200 degs F and I am wondering if there is a possibility where Porsche designed a matching coolant.

Sorry for too many questions but I have learned over the years you have to look at the system and not just the parts...
*** Bart ***

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2014 - 10:26:52 AM »
Ceramic coated headers can help reduce under hood temps .

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline Strawdawg

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2014 - 10:56:15 AM »
Okay...727 with an external tranny cooler only...not routed thru an internal radiator cooler.

For an estimated stall speed of the converter, put the car in Drive, foot firmly on the brake.  Ease down on the accelerator pedal while standing on the brakes...watch the rpm on the tach and see what it is when the rear tires begin to turn.  That will be close to the actual stall speed...Don't take ten minutes to do this as it builds a lot of heat...should only take a few seconds :)  Hopefully this rpm will be less than your cruising speed rpm or not much above.  If it is much above your cruising speed rpm, the converter will be slipping a lot while you are cruising and generating a lot of heat which goes to the cooler and back to your radiator as air flow off the cooler IF the cooler is mounted in front of your radiator core.  Blowing 220 deg F air onto the radiator core tends to negate the cooling in that part of the core :)

Closing that gap should help some, I would think.  Air flow tends to take the route of least resistance and a lot of air can go thru the gap instead of the core.

Try seeing if the car will get overly hot when started from cold and it sits idling without driving.

It's hard to do a definitive test on most thermal fans these days.  It should spin less than a turn when you grab a blade and flip it to give it a spin.  I have noted that a lot of guys online say that the 7 blade hd fan is too heavy for the standard thermal clutches and slip too much at low speed.  They suggest using the Mopar hd viscous fan clutch instead.  I have not looked for this clutch, myself.  The commonly advertised Mopar Viscous clutch fan comes with a five blade fan.  I am not sure if the 7 blade fan can be used with this one, or if it takes the truck fan clutch.   In the old days, a lot of the clutches could be "locked" by pulling the end of the spring out of the slot and rotating it 180 degs to an opposing slot.  I don't think the newer fans have this slot so it is not easy to properly test the clutch.

Neal's comment about the ceramic coating is a great way to reduce under hood temps-only way to fly when getting a new set of headers even tho it is expensive

« Last Edit: May 25, 2014 - 11:13:20 AM by Strawdawg »