Author Topic: another 440 cooling topic....  (Read 9754 times)

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2014 - 11:26:47 AM »
I never had problems with the 7 blade fan & a clutch but yes the fan should be tight at 200* so the clutch is not locking up with heat which will limit the effectiveness of the fan to pull air through the rad

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Offline Strawdawg

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2014 - 11:36:42 AM »
Following what Neal just said, When you start the engine up when the coolant is relatively cool, the amount of air flow coming off the fan at idle should be noticeably less than when the car is above 200 degs and at idle because the fan should be "locked up".  It is also my experience that aftermarket clutches are far less reliable than the original factory clutches.  I have not seen hundreds so take that with a grain of salt :)

Offline dutch

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2014 - 12:30:20 PM »
I gave it a swing when it was at 200 and it turned almost twice. cold it spins maybe 3 times... seems like very little difference to me  :dunno:    new part... I can`t remember what brand it is...
it`s a bit hard to say how much air it move hot vs cold since the car idles at 700 when cold vs 950 when hot. I will have someone hold it at 950 when cold.
Neil, when you say locked up, how tight would that be?  no movement? or half a turn, or..?   any brand of clutch you would recomment?

man, so much info, so many variables... not sure where to start  ::)

- close up the gap around the lower hose
- test clutch/ replace
- milodon hv pump ?
- test stall speed. Even if it does slip, it shouldn`t influence temp since it`s cooled externally..?

as for the coolant. it cant be mixed with water, if I want to test all will have to come out. Using a water mix kinda sucks since it tends to make stuff rust.... I`d hate that with everything new and clean...
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Offline Strawdawg

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2014 - 01:04:43 PM »
That is the reason we use something like RMI-25 or Purple Ice....no rust....

Clutch sounds awfully loose to me

Offline dutch

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2014 - 04:56:27 PM »
is that stuff anti freeze as well?  I will check with the local automotive store if they have something similar

in 70 they did not use an overflow bottle. how high would the coolant level be looking inside the rad?  I suppose if you filled it all the way, it would throw some out when hot and maybe a couple times more, but that has to stop at some point right?
Thing is, I added a small overflow bottle out of some jap junker. filled up the rad all the way and the bottle to "cold" level.  I thought it would throw out what wouldn fit in, but now when hot ,the bottle is filled to the cold level and when the engine is cold, level inside the rad is about 1" below the cap. I drove the car about 20 mls this morning and after cooling down the level inside the rad dropped a few mm again. could this have something to do with the bottle I use? maybe dripping from the overflow hose?  can`t find any leaks or traces and it`s running great, not a single misfire, smoke or anything. No exessive pressure on hoses.  I guess I`ll pull the plugs and see if they have a story to tell   :pullinghair:
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Offline dutch

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2014 - 04:57:54 PM »
ps, dodj,  interesting topic  :2thumbs:
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Offline Strawdawg

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2014 - 06:14:11 PM »
is that stuff anti freeze as well?  I will check with the local automotive store if they have something similar

in 70 they did not use an overflow bottle. how high would the coolant level be looking inside the rad?  I suppose if you filled it all the way, it would throw some out when hot and maybe a couple times more, but that has to stop at some point right?
Thing is, I added a small overflow bottle out of some jap junker. filled up the rad all the way and the bottle to "cold" level.  I thought it would throw out what wouldn fit in, but now when hot ,the bottle is filled to the cold level and when the engine is cold, level inside the rad is about 1" below the cap. I drove the car about 20 mls this morning and after cooling down the level inside the rad dropped a few mm again. could this have something to do with the bottle I use? maybe dripping from the overflow hose?  can`t find any leaks or traces and it`s running great, not a single misfire, smoke or anything. No exessive pressure on hoses.  I guess I`ll pull the plugs and see if they have a story to tell   :pullinghair:

No, they are not anti-freezes.  They contain a surfactant which breaks down the surface tension of the water which allows the water to make better "contact" with the water jacket and radiator tubes thus removing more heat from the engine and transfer it more fully to the radiator tubes and on to the fins.  You ever see an ad for dishwasher soap that shows how it prevents water spots by creating a sheeting action of the water?  That is a surfactant at work...keeps the water from beading.  Then, they contain a lubricant package that not only prevents rust from forming but also keeps the waterpump seal lubed.  Conventional antifreeze has a lube in it to do the same.  Finally, they contain chemicals that prevent antifreeze from precipitating out of solution and plugging up the radiator tubes and heater core as it gets older.  Modern antifreezes also include this in the forms that are advertised as "lifetime" or long life.

Water Wetter was the brand that was available a few years ago...it had a surfactant in it that improved heat transfer but a lot of us noted that rust would start forming after a few months if we did not buy a bottle of Prestone water pump lube and pour it in the radiator.  It did not seem to have the other benefits.

My experience is that one of these products has lowered the coolant temp on hot days by about ten degrees when using either straight water or maybe a 20% antifreeze-80% water mix.  YMMV.  The ads usually claim more but there are a lot of variables involved.  Depending on the product, about 8 oz works for a normal cooling system.  When running a 50-50 Mix of antifreeze/water, I have not seen much difference and I suspect modern antifreezes may have some surfactant added trying to recover a bit of the heat absorption lost by using antifreeze.

As I said before, modern cars often run 225 degs and Porsche may not be concerned with higher than what we call normal operating temps as it is good for emissions if nothing else.  High temps certainly help burn off vapors from the oil and such.


Now, non coolant recovery systems tend to run about 1.5" low, give or take.  If you fill them to the top, they will soon blow some out as you said.  If you use a coolant recovery system (as opposed to a simple overflow catch bottle), water is pushed into the bottle when the engine gets hot and then is sucked back into the radiator when it cools down.  this means it has a pick up on the bottom of the tank to work and that pick up is covered at all times so it cannot suck air back into the radiator.  The fluid is sucked back by a vacuum that forms in the top of the radiator as it cools.  Fluid is allowed to be sucked back by a valve in the radiator cap that opens up as it cools down.  This action will eventually remove almost all the air from the cooling system which allows it to work better.  Air in the head cooling passages does not conduct heat well at all.  Normally, the fill point has to be above the highest coolant point in the block in order to get all the air out and to fully fill the system.  I think if you do a google you will find a better description that I just threw out.  :)

An overflow bottle just keeps the blown out coolant from hitting the road and getting under your tires :D


At this point, I think you probably made an improvement by sealing off the air leaks, but I consider your clutch operation as questionable and I suspect your coolant is not optimized to run as cold as possible by  removing as much heat as possible and transferring it to the radiator tubes.

Offline dodj

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2014 - 09:08:10 PM »
I gave it a swing when it was at 200 and it turned almost twice. cold it spins maybe 3 times... seems like very little difference to me  :dunno:   
To me, that means you need a new clutch assy. I cannot get 1 revolution out of mine when cold. Maybe 1/2 a revolution. Never tried it a operating temps, but it should be stiffer.
Scott
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2007.5 3500 6.7 Cummins Diesel, Anarchy tuned.
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Offline moparstyle

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2014 - 09:35:23 PM »
To me, that means you need a new clutch assy. I cannot get 1 revolution out of mine when cold. Maybe 1/2 a revolution. Never tried it a operating temps, but it should be stiffer.

 :iagree: on that, mine is the same.
General driving around town my engine temp is 180-190 and she seems happy with that. Major traffic stand-still the temp hit 220 but no puking of coolant. Have a 26" factory radiator with shroud, MP housing and Milodon pump. And here the weather is HOT...

This is an interesting thread, i learned a lot. Dutch, hope you will get it corrected soon.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2014 - 09:37:32 PM by moparstyle »
72 Challenger, 440 stroker, 727 (70 clone)
70 Barracuda Gran Coupe
And on the side:
67 Pontiac GTO
63 Lincoln Continental

Offline dutch

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2014 - 05:18:40 AM »
I marked one fanblade to get a better look at what is actually happening.  turns out with the engine cold, the first time I spun it ,it made 2 revs, second time 3 revs and 3rd time almost 4 revs...  :clueless:
at 200 it feels like it`s moving a bit more air vs when cold but it won`t mess up your hair.  I shut it down at 205 and immediatly gave the fan a swing and it turned over one full rev.  Seems loose..?


Try seeing if the car will get overly hot when started from cold and it sits idling without driving.



I had it idling for about 20 minutes and it stayed at 190, but then I realised the hood was open. Closed it and sure enough it started rising slowly, nothing dramatic though, maybe up to 198 after 5 minutes.

Okay...727 with an external tranny cooler only...not routed thru an internal radiator cooler.

For an estimated stall speed of the converter, put the car in Drive, foot firmly on the brake.  Ease down on the accelerator pedal while standing on the brakes...watch the rpm on the tach and see what it is when the rear tires begin to turn.  That will be close to the actual stall speed...Don't take ten minutes to do this as it builds a lot of heat...should only take a few seconds :)  Hopefully this rpm will be less than your cruising speed rpm or not much above. 



did that and the wheels broke loose at about 1800rpm.  Right after that temps went up, but also slowely came down again
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Offline Strawdawg

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2014 - 11:16:40 AM »
sounds like the fan clutch to me.  You should get plenty of air off the fan at idle cold, or hot....plenty to ruffle your hair, at least.  Mine does not ruffle my hair but then I am bald.   :rofl:

It's normal to cool off at idle with the hood open more than when it is closed.  All that heat can go straight up.

Sounds like a stock converter and therefore should not be generating any additional heat at the speeds you are running.


Know anyone that you can borrow a fan and clutch from within a reasonable distance?


Offline dutch

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2014 - 01:45:38 PM »
I dont know anyone I can borrow one from.  I`ll call the shop that sold it to me 250 mls ago and go from there. would it be a wise step to change the 440 source waterpump for a milodon hv while at it?  I guess there`s a thing or two to gain there as well.
What would cause the fan to spin easier with every time you swing it, when cold?
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Offline Strawdawg

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2014 - 02:32:41 PM »
mine has a five blade fan on it which is less rotating mass...it makes about a half turn when I flip it.  I "think" I bought it from Mancini. http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/viscousfan.html    That is the fan and clutch package but you can find the fan on ebay and other places

I would try a clutch before investing in the pump...I agree the Milodon is better but I kinda doubt it is related to your problem at the moment.

I would try to get the Mopar clutch as I think they are better but not sure who makes them today for Mopar.

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2014 - 03:29:52 PM »
I think I had access to Cooling Depot clutches , you could see what Rock Auto sells or contact Dave @ Roseville , to me the clutch is not working correctly , it should be tighter .
 Rock has Hayden 2747 for $40 Hd thermal

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Offline Strawdawg

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Re: another 440 cooling topic....
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2014 - 04:26:01 PM »
I think I had access to Cooling Depot clutches , you could see what Rock Auto sells or contact Dave @ Roseville , to me the clutch is not working correctly , it should be tighter .
 Rock has Hayden 2747 for $40 Hd thermal

Maybe this is a time where using one of the Jag clutches that you have mentioned might make good sense?  :)