Ethanol Corrosion

[moparman82]

My wife works in crop insurance, and since the ethanol fuel push, 1,000s of farmers have switched from growing everyday foods to corn for the government subsidies

['Cuda Hunter]

I've seen the same corn also.
Both human grade and animal grade corn.  Mostly the animal/feed corn, but they use both.

More and more farmers are definitely turning into corn fuel croppers.

['Cuda Hunter]

Food grade which is only 10% of the corn grown in the US is not used for Ethanol production. No one is going to starve because of Ethanol.

I do understand what your saying though. No one is going to starve because of the corn fuel.
But it will raise our prices on the existing foods. 
It will also raise prices of production of gasoline. 
Aren't the poor people in this country starving because they don't have enough Money to purchase food. 
So, if food is now more expensive, they will surely suffer in some ways.

I'm all for working your butt off for a living.  Not trying to give validation to poor people to stay poor.  Just saying, won't this hurt them.  Even if on a minor level.

[Strawdawg]

  Just saying, won't this hurt them.  Even if on a minor level.

The price of cattle, sheep, and goats has more than doubled over the past few years.  The price of corn which is one of the primary ingredients in livestock feed.  Ten years a 50# sack of corn was less than $3.  I have paid as much as $12 per bag during one of the drought years, but it has settled back to $9-10 now.

The average price of sheep/goats headed to the feed lot has doubled in the past four years and the price of feed is one of the primary reasons.  If you are old enough to have been going to the meat counter of your grocery store for the past few years, just compare the price of steaks or hamburger meat.  It hurts all of us.

Strange thing is that the government tells us that inflation is a non-factor.

['Cuda Hunter]

The gov is definitely steering us wrong on the Ethanol issue.

I don't necessarily believe in the corrosion factor, But I don't disagree.  Just have not seen enough to believe it yet.

I do think that Ethanol is a serious problem. And should be done away with. 

[Strawdawg]

The gov is definitely steering us wrong on the Ethanol issue.

I don't necessarily believe in the corrosion factor, But I don't disagree.  Just have not seen enough to believe it yet.

I do think that Ethanol is a serious problem. And should be done away with.

Refiners started adding ethanol to gas about 30 years ago as lead was being removed to make it easier to keep the octane up a bit, but, the real push started in the early 90's when it determined that MTBE? was being found in ground water.  We have had 10% ethanol mixes for a long time now and there was no new ground broken by the Hot Rod article as the affects have been known by most.  It was mainly another advertising blurb for a product.

Ethanol is corrosive but it is not nearly as corrosive as methanol as someone pointed out above.  If one actually reads the DOE papers, they show that the corrosion factor with ethanol increases with percentage of mix, temperature, and amount of water content.  When all three increase, it can get nasty.  Anodized aluminum resists corrosion well as does polished surfaces but gaskets are susceptible over a longer period of time even tho gasket formulation has changed in the past 20 years. I believe it was Neil that pointed out the problems with longer term storage above.

After about a month, the ethanol starts to separate itself from the gas base, collects moisture out of the air. Winter storage for long periods of time with gas in the bowl is not good.  Vent tube allows water to be absorbed from the vent tube, gas separates, and nasty stuff forms which not only clogs up up the passages but allows some corrosion to begin.  Normally, it so small that one sees some white powder on surfaces but no real  erosion.  This is on 10% mixtures not E85.

Sta-bil, StarFoam, etc all claim to combat the separation, corrosion, etc.

I find it curious that people will pour alcohol in the tank to "dry" the gas but suddenly are worried about the crap gas they have been buying for 20+ years.  It should be noted that the car manufacturers are fighting hard against trying to build non flex fuel cars for 15% mixes so there is no doubt that there is a point where increased ethanol becomes an expensive problem in spite of what the corn lobby wants.

Glad I live in Texas and don't have to store my car for 6-7 months....

[Racer57]

My wife works in crop insurance, and since the ethanol fuel push, 1,000s of farmers have switched from growing everyday foods to corn for the government subsidies

The only subsidy was for the blenders in order to make ethanol fuel cheaper at the pump and it was dropped a few years ago. Farmers never got a subsidy for ethanol corn. The ones that live close enough to one of the 200 or so ethanol plants scattered throughout the US do get a premium when they sell it directly to the processor which is no different than the ones that take their food grade corn to a processor.  When farmers take their corn to the elevator they have no say as to where it goes. The exact same as when you put your money in a bank and expecting the bank to allow you to tell them where to invest "your" money.

Feed grade corn is whats used for ethanol, not food grade but there is a few varieties that are used for making products used for food.

Ethanol production has very little effect on food prices other than what the political rhetoric wants you to believe. If it did, then explain why your food hasn't dropped its prices considering corn is now worth $4.30 instead of $8.00 a couple years ago.

[Strawdawg]

http://www.taxpayer.net/library/article/corn-ethanol-subsidies-are-alive-and-well

a rose by any other name, perhaps 

[Racer57]

http://www.taxpayer.net/library/article/corn-ethanol-subsidies-are-alive-and-well

a rose by any other name, perhaps 

That only backs up what I said about farmers not getting a subsidy. None of those are subsidies go directly into the farmers pocket by growing corn like some people think. They are also no different than the subsidies that the petro companies get. Farmers were growing corn long before ethanol and will grow it even if it goes away. Anyone that thinks farmers are growing more corn for an ethanol kickback are only fooling themselves. The EU, Brazil and China have far more impact on corn prices than ethanol does.

Amazing how many people jump on American farmers for doing what they've always done. It not like farmers got together and decided to invent ethanol.  Henry Ford used it in his Model T's.
I wonder how many people there really is out there that think farmers are not needed because they can get their food at the store ?

[blown motor]

I wonder how many people there really is out there that think farmers are not needed because they can get their food at the store ?

Far too many Racer.

[moparman82]

The only subsidy was for the blenders in order to make ethanol fuel cheaper at the pump and it was dropped a few years ago. Farmers never got a subsidy for ethanol corn. The ones that live close enough to one of the 200 or so ethanol plants scattered throughout the US do get a premium when they sell it directly to the processor which is no different than the ones that take their food grade corn to a processor.  When farmers take their corn to the elevator they have no say as to where it goes. The exact same as when you put your money in a bank and expecting the bank to allow you to tell them where to invest "your" money.

Feed grade corn is whats used for ethanol, not food grade but there is a few varieties that are used for making products used for food.

Ethanol production has very little effect on food prices other than what the political rhetoric wants you to believe. If it did, then explain why your food hasn't dropped its prices considering corn is now worth $4.30 instead of $8.00 a couple years ago.

http://farm.ewg.org/region.php?fips=00000

[Strawdawg]

Being a rancher/small farmer, I am well aware of government subsidies to the farmer as I have collected my share.  Whether they are Direct and Counter-cyclical payments or in the form of subsidized crop/pasture insurance, it is a subsidy.  With the twists and turns of these programs, the small farmer is steadily being pushed out of business in favor of the corporate farmer.  I do know under the latest farm bill, most of my share has disappeared because it has taken the form of subsidized insurance and I am not large enough play the game.

I am neither opposing or supporting these programs.  On the other hand, ADM has made out like a bandit from ethanol payments which has kept the price of E85 from reflecting the true price at the pump...given all the taxes on fuel, I am not sure what the true price may be.

I am not sure where you got your corn prices but the average price of corn over the past 35 years does not show a downward trend.  I am sure that local prices vary depending upon the rainfall.

Back to the original subject, I bought a '68 CJ-5 a year ago that had been sitting for a few years.  The carb was not badly corroded and it ran fine with a new kit

[Chryco Psycho]

Ethanol & EFI work better as there is a sealed fuel system end to end so moisture is not absorbed but it will still separate , I definatly witnessed corrosion with 100% ethanol

['Cuda Hunter]

Ethanol & EFI work better as there is a sealed fuel system end to end so moisture is not absorbed but it will still separate , I definatly witnessed corrosion with 100% ethanol

Would that be corrosion from phase seperation/moisture?  Or was there corrosion to metals that were obvious? 
Are we talking E85?  Or pure Ethanol?

[Strawdawg]

Would that be corrosion from phase seperation/moisture?  Or was there corrosion to metals that were obvious? 
Are we talking E85?  Or pure Ethanol?

Here is one paper that addresses aluminum corrosion with ethanol   http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f10/pm039_pawel_2012_o.pdf

Now, Chryco is pointing out that older, non fi cars suffer badly from phase separation far more than a modern f.i. car with a sealed, recirculating system.

It brings up a question to me...in the '80's gas tanks were supposedly coated inside with a material that would not suffer as badly from phase separation induced corrosion.  I wonder if replacement tanks for older cars are likewise coated?

My observations is that in 30 days or so, the ethanol will start settling to the bottom of the container whether sealed or not.  This not only means the car is going to run much leaner off the bottom of the tank, but, if the tank is able to obtain air and water condenses out, a lot of goo is being ingested when the car is started up.  And, then, the gas on top will be lower on octane which can be a problem.

Bottom line is that it's not good for any car, but, it's lots worse on a carbed car if it sits.  Sta-Bil, Star Tron, SeaFoam or whatever the latest magic is better than nothing but I kinda doubt any of it will prevent separation for a very long period.  For a car being driven, it is not much of a problem.

Better living courtesy of the government...